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ROOSEVELT 



vs. 



NEWETT 



A Transcript of the Testimony taken 

and Depositions read at 

Marquette, Mich. 



( Privately Printed ) 



r^nn.. 



Copyright, 1914 

BY 

W. Emlen Roosevelt 









To My Fellow Witnesses: 

We have all been greatly incensed, from time 
to time in recent years, by reports that Theodore 
Roosevelt was a drinking- man. We, who knew 
the unusual purity and wholesomeness of his life, 
felt especial anger at this rumor, both because of 
its persistence and of its cruel falsity. 

When Mr. Newett published the libel in the 
'Tshpeming Iron Ore" we had our opportunity to 
contradict it once for all. We were glad to appear 
under oath and testify to Theodore Roosevelt's 
clean habit of life. We were glad to contradict 
this story completely and authoritatively. 

I have had this book printed because I knew 
that we all wanted to have a complete copy of the 
official record which contradicts the libel. 

W. EMLEN ROOSEVELT. 



INDEX 

Witnesses. Direct. 

Theodore Roosevelt 7 

Henry Rauthier 34 

Jacob A. Riis 35 

Alexander Lambert 45 

Presley Rixey 55 

John B. Murphy 67 

Arthur D. Bevan 70 

Gilson Gardner 72 

John Callan O'Laughlin 82 

Robert Bacon 118 

L. F. Curtis 125 

Truman H. Newberry 133 

Charles W. Thompson 140 

A. W. Abele ISO 

Albin Z. Blair 172 

Philip Roosevelt 178 

Edwin Emerson 190 

Gifford Pinchot 195 

Lawrence Abbott 206 

James R. Garfield 212 

Edmund Heller 223 

Oscar K. Davis 235 

Joseph E. Bayliss 249 

W. Enilen Roosevelt 250 

William Loeb, Jr 252 

Frank H. Tyree 262 

James Sloan 268 

William P. Schaufflee 276 

Albert Shaw 288 

George B. Cortelyou 302 

Lawrence Hill Graham 311 

George Emlen Roosevelt 318 

James E. Amos 323 

Lyman Abbott 332 

General Leonard Wood ^^^ 

William B. Dulany 346 

Admiral George Dewey 351 

George A. Newett 353 

Charge of the Court 359 



Cross. 


Re-Direct 


25 


33 


42 


44 


52 


54 


62 


65 



76,115 
100 
124 
129 
139 
148 
163 
177 
185 
195 
203 
208 
220 
233 
246 

252 
260 
267 
275 
286 



81 
115 



172 



189 



235 
248 



^tate of illicf)isan. 



tCfte Circuit Court for tfje Count? of jUarquette. 



Theodore Roosevelt, 

Plaintiff. 



vs. ) Tried Alay 26-31, 1913. 



George A. Newett, 

Defendant. 



APPEARANCES: 

For Plaintiff: For Defendant: 

James H. Pound, William P. Belden, 

William H. Van Benschoten, Horace Andrev^s. 

W. S. Hill. 



Theodore Roosevelt, sworn in his own behalf, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What is your name, please? 

A. Theodore Roosevelt. 

Q. You were born where? 

A. I was born in New York City, October 2^, 1858. 

Q. Your home during your boyhood was where? 

A. New York City in the winter, and in the country in the sum- 
mer, the adjacent country. 

Q. You finished your studies about w^hat year — I mean as a 
scholar, of course? 

A. 1880. 



Q. And at that time did you take a degree? 

A. Yes, I took a degree. 

Q. From where? 

A. Harvard. 

Q. After graduating from Harvard what did you devote your 
attention to? 

A. Writing, and I went into poHtics. 

Q. What was the first connection you had with politics ? 

A. I was elected to the legislature in the fall of 1881, and re- 
elected in 1882, and in 1883. 

Q. The legislature of what State? 

A. Of the State of New York. 

Q. During that time, and as a part of your duty, did you 
become acquainted with a number of government men that were 
somewhat new to you? 

A. I did. 

Mr. Andrews: — Just a moment. We object to that, as irrele- 
vant, incompetent and immaterial. 

Mr. Pound : — I am not going to pursue it any further. 

Mr. Andrews:— We object to it. 

Mr. Pound: — I think I am entitled to that much. 

Court : — I have some question about it, Mr. Pound. 

Mr. Pound: — Do I understand that in case of an adverse rul- 
ing, an exception is given as of course, or do we have to take it? 

Court : — You have to take it. 

Mr. Pound: — Please give me an exception. 

Q. After your service as a member of the legislature what was 
the next matter that you were associated with, in connection witii 
the government in any way, either municipal, state or national? 

A. I was appointed Civil Service Commissioner in the spring 
of 1889. I served until the spring of 1895. I then was appointed 
police commissioner. I was president of the police commission of 
the City of New York until the spring of 1897. I was then ap- 
pointed Assistant Secretary of the Navy, under President McKinley, 
and I served until the spring of 1898. I then resigned to accept 
the position of Lieutenant-Colonel of the Volunteer Cavalry, com- 
monly called the Rough Riders, in the war with Spain. I served 
through the fight at Santiago, in which the regiment lost — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. And after Santiago? 

A. I was promoted to be Colonel. 



Q. How many times were you under fire? 

A. I was — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 

Court : — I will hear you Why do you think that is competent ? 

Mr. Pound: — I think it is a part of the man's history. 

Court: — You may take the answer. 

A. I was under all the fire there was in Cuba. I was in the 
Las Guasimas fight, and in the Santiago fight, in which the num- 
ber of — 

Mr. Andrew's: — I object to this statement. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. That will be sufficient. At the expiration of 
the contest in Cuba, where did you go — were you mustered out? 

A. The regiment was mustered out in September, 1898, at 
Montauk Point, and I was elected governor of New York that 
same fall. 

Q. How long did you serve in that office? 

A. I served for two years; and while governor, in the spring 
of 1900, I was nominated as Vice-President with President Mc- 
Kinley, and served as Vice-President until in September, 1901. 
when President McKinley died because of the bullet wound 
inflicted by Czolgosz. I then became President, and I served the 
three and a half years of the unexpired term for which President 
McKinley was elected. I was nominated, and elected President 
in 1904. and served until March 4, 1909. 

Q. Now, Mr. Roosevelt, after the expiration of your term of 
office as President, what did you then next devote your atten- 
tion to? 

A. Two weeks and a half after I left the White House I went 
to Africa, as the head of the Smithsonian expedition for the 
National Museum ; an expedition to collect natural history material 
for the National Museum at Washington. I was a year on that 
expedition; I was eleven months in Africa, entering at Mombasa, 
on the east coast, and going into the middle of Africa, and down 
the Nile. I then spent about two months in Europe, and came 
home, reaching home in June, 1910. Since then I have been 
connected with the Outlook. 

Q. In that connection with the Outlook have you had occasion 
to travel somewhat, over the United States since your return? 

A. It was independent of that connection. 

Q. You have, though? 

9 



A. 1 liave traveled back and forth across the United States 
since I returned. 

Q. Now, did you ever Hve in the West? 

A. I did. 

Q. Tell me when. r 

A. From 1883 to 1896. 

Q. What portion of the West were you in? 

A. T lived on a cow ranch in the short grass country of the 
Little Missouri. 

Q. In what state ? 

A. In what was the Territory of Dakota when I went in there, 
but now is the state of North Dakota. I lived there at intervals 
for two or three years during the major part of the time; but for 
the latter part of that time I was only out a few weeks or a few 
months each year. 

Q. Now, during the year 1912, did matters so shape themselves 
that you participated in the campaign of 1912? 

A. I i)articipated in it. 

Q. In the month of October, 191 2, were you in the state of 
Wisconsin ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. I call your attention to the date October 11, 1912. Do you 
remember that date? 

A. If you can identify it by some incident; I don't remember 
that date. 

Q. I ask you to look at this paper, and look at the date, if 
you please? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you ever see a copy of that? 

A. I did. 

Q. With reference to October nth, this date, as near as you 
can tell, when Avas it that you saw that? 

A. It was within a few days, but I cannot remember whether 
it was before or after I was shot. 

Mr. Andrkws : — I move to strike out the answer. 

Court : — The answer may stand. 

Mr. Andkkw .'^ : — I except. I move to strike out the latter part 
of the answer, relating to when he was shot, as incompetent, 
irrelevant and immaterial. 

Mr. Pound: — I only offer it as fixing the date. 

10 



Court : — You have an exception, Mr. Andrews. Let the answer 
stand. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Where were you when your attention was 
first called to this article? 

A. That is what I am not sure of. My memory is that I was 
in Mercy Hospital at the time ; but it may have been before I had 
gone there. That is the only reason I mentioned about being 
shot, that I don't remember. 

Q. Mercy Hospital is where? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial in this case. 

Court: — The objection is overruled. 

Mr. Andrews : — Note an exception. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What is the answer? 

A. Mercy Hospital is in Chicago. 

Q. You are in doubt as to the other place, where you say you 
were shot. Where were you shot, wdiat city? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that; I don't think that fixes any 
date, and the evident purpose is, it seems to me, to put in here 
something entirely foreign to justice, in this case. 

Mr. Pound:^ — It is strictly competent. He identifies it in con- 
nection with one or the other of two places. 

Court : — What do you expect to claim for this testimony ? 

Mr. Pound : — Nothing more than to fix the division of time 
beyond peradventure. 

Court : — For that one purpose you may take the answer. 

Mr. Andrew^s : — Note an exception. 

A. Milwaukee. 

Mr. Andrews : — That has no relevancy to this case. 

Court : — We have ruled on that proposition, and you have an 
exception. 

AIr. Pound: — O. Calling your attention to this article, did you 
read it? 

A. I did. 

Q. How did you feel about it? 

A. I felt indignant. 

Q. Were you at that time able to recall the gentleman whose 
najne is at the head of this sheet as the owner? 

A. I think not. 

Mr. Pound : — You gentlemen do not raise any question about 
this paper, do you? 

Mr. Belden : — No. 

11 



Mr. Pound: — I think we may as well here as any place intro- 
duce this, and I will offer this article in evidence. 

Mr. Belden : — There is no objection to that. 

^[r. Pound : — I will read that portion of it which I deem to be 
pertinent, from the article under the caption "The Roosevelt Way." 
I will offer in evidence the head of the editorial page down to and 
under the flag. 

Court: — You may read to the jury at this time just what you 
oft'er. 

]Mr. Pound: — For identification, I will read: "Iron Ore. Two 
Dollars per year in advance. George A. Newett, Publisher. Entered 
at the Post Office at Ishpeming, Michigan, as second class matter. 
Saturday, October 12, 191 2." Now I read as to the libel. 

"The Roosevelt Way. According to Roosevelt, he is the otily 
man who can call others liars, rascals and thieves, terms he applies 
to Republicans generally. All that Roosevelt has gained politically 
he received from the hands of the Republican party. Had he won 
in the Republican convention in Chicago, then the Republican party 
would still be a good party, and all others would have been made 
up of liars and thieves and scoundrels generally. But if anyone 
calls Roosevelt a liar, he raves and roars and takes on in an awful 
way; and yet Roosevelt is a pretty good liar himself; where a lie 
will serve to advance his position, he employs it. Roosevelt lies 
and curses in a most disgusting way; he gets drunk, too, and that 
not infrequently, and all his intimates know about it. What is 
the use of mincing things with him when he maltreats everyone 
not for him?- Because he has l)ecn president gives him no more 
privilege above other men, and his conduct is just as deserving of 
censure as that of any other offender against decency. How can 
Roosevelt expect to go unlashed when he maliciously and untruth- 
fully strikes out at other people? It is just as Harlan said, he is 
the greatest little fighter in the country when he is alone in the 
ring; but he acts like a madman if anyone dares criticize him. 
He must do all the swearing and abusing of people; no one else 
can cjuestion him. All who oppose him are wreckers of the coun- 
try, liars, knaves and undesirables. He alone is pure and entitled 
to a halo. Rats. For so great a fighter, self-styled, he is the 
poorest loser we ever knew." 

O. You are now fifty-four years of age, as I figure it out? 

A. I am. 

12 



Q. I ask you, since your arrival at the age of manhood, what 
is the fact as to whether you have ever been under the influence 
of intoxicating liquors or drugs? 

A. I have never been drunk or in the slightest degree under 
the influence of liquor. 

Q. Now, I wish you would describe in your own way to the 
jury, what, if any, use you make of liquors, spirituous or malt, 
since your manhood, in your recollection. 

A. 1 do not drink either whiskey or brandy, except as I shall 
hereafter say, except as I drink it under the direction of a doctor; 
I do not drink beer; I sometimes drink light wine. 

Q. Let me ask you right there, have you ever indulged in porter 
on any occasion? 

A. I never drank liquor or porter or anything of that kind. I 
have never drunk a high-ball or cocktail in my life. I have some- 
times drunk mint juleps in the White House. There was a bed of 
mint there, and I may have drunk half a dozen mint juleps a year, 
and certainly no more. 

Q. All at one time, or was it just a — some people here may be in 
the court room for the first time, and I desire you to state the facts. 

A. I never drank but one mint julep at a time; I doubt if I have 
drunk a half dozen a year; I doubt if I drank a dozen during the 
entire seven and a half years there ; since I left the presidency, 
in the four years since I left, I remember I have drunk two ; one 
at the Country Club in St. Louis, where I simply touched a mouthful, 
and one at Little Rock, Arkansas, where there was a dinner given 
by the governor of the state and others, and they passed a loving 
cup of mint juleps, and I drank from that as it passed. 

Q. What is the fact — I may be too anxious about it — but I want 
to know whether there was ever a time that you drank two mint 
juleps inside of one day of twenty-four hours ; would that much 
time pass between the half dozen you have tasted in the four years 
you were drinking in the White House? 

A. I should say, Mr. Pound, it would be perfectly possible for 
me to take that much on some occasion in the past thirty-four years 
or nearly, to drink two mint juleps together, but I don't think so : I 
think not. 

Q. Now, you say you occasionally drink light wine; will you 
just describe the amount? 

A. I don't like beer, and sometimes I will go to a friend's house 
where they will ask me to drink beer or whiskey, but instead of 

13 



drinking beer or whiskey I will drink light wine, a glass or two 
glasses. At home, at dinner, I may partake of a glass or two 
glasses of white wine. At a public dinner, or a big dinner, if they 
have champagne I will take a glass or two glasses of champagne, 
but I take it publicly just as much as privately. 

O. While you were president of the United States, will you 
tell us what the fact was as to whether there were a number of 
dinners, three or four annually, known as state dinners? 
A. Yes. 

O. Or diplomatic dinners ? 

A. As you understand, there are in the White House every year 
three or four dinners, sometimes more, which are called state din- 
ners, regular functions to which members of congress, foreign 
ambassadors and others are invited. I also dined, as every presi- 
dent does once a year, with each member of his cabinet, and at 
those dinners, as far as I remember, without exception there was 
champagne. Outside of that, in the White House, I have drunk 
light wine, and not usually at all if we were alone ; if there were 
guests I might drink a glass or two of light wine, and I might not 
drink anything; and in the White House I never touched brandy 
or whiskey except as I have described it in connection with the 
mint juleps or under the doctor's direction. 

Q. Just one question right there. Has there been, since your 
experience in Cuba, anything that occurs to you occasionally in the 
way of illness or chills? 

A. Oh, I have had, ever since the Cuban campaign, I have 
now and then had a slight attack of fever, and which will be brought 
on usually by over-exertion ; I had a couple of attacks of fever in 
Africa. I had one attack when in the Rocky Mountains; in the 
Rocky Mountains when I had an attack of fever it lasted two or 
three days, and then it came on again ; and in the first attack of 
it the doctor gave me a drink of whiskey ; but I told him I didn't 
think it did me any good, and when the relapse came I asked him 
not to give it to me, and I took hot tea instead. In Africa the 
expedition took with it a case of champagne, a case of whiskey 
and a bottle of brandy. I never touched one drop of either the 
champagne or the whiskey. The champagne was used purely for 
certain members of the party who got dysentery and fever towards 
the end of the trip, and it was also used for certain elephant hunters 
and traders and missionaries whom we met who were sick with 
fever or dysentery, and it was only used for such purposes. The 

14 



whiskey was used chiefly for such purposes, but some members of 
the party drank it otherwise. I never touched a drop. The 
brandy bottle — I was the only person that drank from the brandy 
bottle. 

Mr. Andrews : — I think this is not responsive to any questions 
asked. 

Mr. Pound: — Yes, I asked him what the experience was in 
Africa. 

Court : — You may proceed, and you have an exception, if you 
care for it. 

Mr. Andrews : — I except to the ruling. 

A. The only brandy I drank was at the time of my two fever 
attacks. I drank in those two fever attacks, by direction of the 
doctor, about seven tablespoonfuls. I think most of it was in the 
first fever attack ; and then I told the doctor, Dr. Mearns, when the 
second fever attack came on — 

Mr. Andrews : — The conversation with the doctor I ask to 
have excluded. 

INIr. Pound: — That probably would not be proper. 

A. After the second fever attack I refused to take any more, 
and took tea ; and during the eleven months that I was in Africa, 
the only liquor, brandy or whiskey that I took were those seven 
tablespoonfuls of brandy. 

Q. How many men were in your party that started with you 
from Mombasa ? 

A. Five. 

O. Was it added to by guides or others as you traversed the 
country ? 

Mr. Andrews : — That is objected to as immaterial. 

Court : — You may have an exception. 

A. Two other men, two professional elephant hunters, joined us. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Where was it that you left Africa proper 
before you reached Egypt? 

A. Khartum. 

O. You went in at Alombasa and came out of Africa at Khar- 
tum? 

A. Yes. 

O. From Khartum your progress down to the Mediterranean 
was by what method? 

15 



A. It was by railroad. At Khartum I was met by my wife and 
daughter and son and various friends and certain newspaper men, 
who continued with me until I came home. 

Q. In the basket of champagne how many bottles would be 
included? 

A. You mean the case of champagne? 

Q. Yes. 

A. I don't know ; I never saw it. 

Q. What I am getting at, was it six or eight or ten or twelve 
bottles ? 

A. I couldn't tell you; I don't know how many bottles there 
were. 

Q. I understand you that you do not claim to be a prohibitionist 
or total abstainer? 

A. I am not. 

Q. How would you describe yourself as a user of any kind of 
liquor, free, or — 

A. I use — 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. How would you describe yourself as a user of 
liquor, either spirituous or malt, as to being a free consumer of 
them to excess or abstemiously? 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to because it is leading and 
incompetent. 

Court: — That seems to be clearly competent. I will give you 
an exception. 

A. Will you allow me to make my statement as to how much 
I use? 

y\R. Pound: — Q. Go ahead and state it. 

A. I can begin by saying that I am not a total abstainer, but 
that I am ver>^ abstemious, very abstemious in the use of wine at 
all ; that I know of no man in any profession — 

Mr. Andrews: — Just a moment. 

Mr. Pound: — Well, that may not be material. 

Mr. Andrews: — I ask that that be excluded, and ask that the 
jury be instructed not to consider it. 

Court: — The last answer will be stricken out, the last part of 
it. Now, gentlemen of the jury, as this suit progresses, if a ques- 
tion is answered and the Court strikes out that answer, you will 
disregard the answer; it will drop right out of your minds. 

16 



]\Ir. Pound: — Q. Now, you may just describe your consumption 
of liquor in the last fifteen years. 

A. When I went to Cuba — 

Mr. Andrews : — May I suggest, if the Court please — I don't 
want to interrupt Colonel Roosevelt unnecessarily, but it seems to 
me this matter has all been gone over, and while it may be entirely 
competent, I doubt the advisability of repeating it. 

Court: — Repetition sometimes becomes necessary on account 
of interruptions. You may go on. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Just describe it in your own way. 

A. When on the campaign in Cuba I drank nothing. I had no 
whiskey or brandy with me. Before I left several people sent me 
whiskey and brandy bottles, and I asked the colonel of the regi- 
ment, Colonel Wood, what he would do with it, and they were 
turned over to the hospital. Since coming back I have told you 
how much I drank in the White House. That same statement 
applies when I have been home, and applies while I was governor. 
May I describe the routine of the White House? 

O. As briefly as you can. I think we would all like to know 
that. 

A. I would get up in the morning at about eight, breakfast 
with Mrs. Roosevelt and the children; walk around twenty minutes, 
walking around the White House grounds ; from there go down 
to the office where my private secretary, Mr. Loeb, was, and 
take up — 

O. The offices were where with reference to the capital? 

A. The office is connected with the White House, about two 
hundred feet away. I would take up my work with Mr. Loeb and 
answer the mail, and senators and congressmen would come in. 
I would have a cabinet meeting; every moment would be occupied 
up to about one o'clock. At one o'clock, unless I had shaved 
myself, I would be shaved, in a little room between the room 
where I sat and the room in which ]\Ir. Loeb sat. I would quite 
frequently, instead of shaving myself, get somebody to shave me, 
because then I could do work while I was being shaved. I had to 
economize every spare moment. Mr. Loeb, or sometimes a senator 
or congressman or someone else would come in and see me while I 
was being shaved. Usually Mr. Loeb was in at the same time, and 
I would dictate letters to him, and then as soon as I was finished 
shaving I would go and wash my hands, Mr. Loeb usually coming 
in with me and I giving dictation or answering questions as I 

17 



was finishing washing my hands. Never, on any occasion on any 
day, in the entire time that I was in the White House, had I ever 
touched a drop of anything prior to lunch, never under any cir- 
cumstances. 

O. Then what followed? 

A. I would go over and lunch with Mrs. Roosevelt, and some- 
times with guests. 

O. Did the lunch immediately follow your ablutions ? 

A. As soon as I washed my hands I would walk right across 
the terrace and take lunch with Mrs. Roosevelt. Often there 
would be people there, and almost always, because I had some 
business to do with them. If Mrs. Roosevelt and I were alone we 
had only tea or milk or water, whatever it was, at lunch. If there 
w^ere any guests, there would usually be light wine on the table. 
Immediately afterwards I would again go back to be with Mr. Loeb 
and finish up the work, and I would go over with any head of a 
department or anyone who had anything to put before me in con- 
nection wuth the government service. At four in the afternoon, or 
as near that as possible, I would go out for a ride or for a walk 
or play tennis, and then stop and get back about six. I would 
then take up the mail that had accumulated in the afternoon and 
answer that and do any other things that there were to do. I 
would then spend half an hour with the children, and bathe and 
dress for dinner. If we dined alone we had no wine and no 
liquor of any kind on our table. If there were guests and it was 
a small affair we would have light wine, of which 1 have spoken : 
if it was a state dinner there would be champagne. If we were 
alone, as soon as dinner was over, I would again go back to the 
office, or get jMr. Loeb or some head of a department or any other 
man with whom I had business up to my library and go over the 
business with him. And after a cabinet dimier or state dinner, as 
often happened, I w-as pressed with work, I would work perhaps 
half an hour or three-quarters of an hour after coming back to tlie 
\\'hite House. I would then usually sit down and read some book 
entirely disconnected with my work, so as to get the work out of my 
head before I went to bed. I would go to bed at about twelve ; 
that was the usual time I was able to go to bed ; and at that time 
not infrequently Surgeon-General Rixey, who was my doctor dur- 
ing those seven and a half years, would be in to see me, when I 
would go to bed. and get up and breakfast as I have described. 
On these trips through the country — 

18 



O. Just a moment. 1 want to finish up with the Wliite House 
now. During that seven and a half years when you were in Wash- 
ington, from the time you arose at eight o'clock in the morning 
up.til you went to bed at twelve o'clock at night, were you constantly 
engaged in business excepting the time that you took for recreation ? 

A. Excepting the time I mentioned for recreation, and except- 
ing the half hour I mentioned wdien I was with my own family, 
I was engaged every minute of the day in business, and not except- 
ing those times, I was always in sight and in touch with either the 
members of my own family for the half hour or thereabouts that 
I have spoken about, or Mr. Loeb and the other people who were 
associated with me, and that included the two hours' walk that I 
took. For instance, the Secret Service men were always in at- 
tendance ; and whenever I went out for any reason they would go out 
with me. When I went to church one of them would follow some 
little distance behind, and when I went out in the evening on any 
occasion they would follow with me. When, for instance. Speaker 
Cannon had a seventieth birthday celebration in the evening, on 
that occasion Mr. Loeb went "with me. We keep a record in the 
White House of the particular hours at which I left the White 
House and came back to it. When I went to Speaker Cannon's 
.reception, the card shows that Mr. Loeb and I started at about 
9 :20, with Jim Sloan, the Secret Service man ; we went there to 
the reception and came back about eleven o'clock. At that par- 
ticular reception, as he was from Jim Sloan's district, Mr. Sloan, 
the Secret Service man, accompanied me out to the carriage and 
asked if he could stay, as he had friends there. Mr. Loeb said 
yes, that he was going home with me, and he went home with me. 
And at that reception, as at the cabinet dinners, as at every other 
occasion, I never touched a drop of whiskey or brandy. At that 
reception I drank a glass of champagne and I ate a sandwich, and 
I drank the glass of champagne in proposing i\Ir. Cannon's health 
on his seventieth birthday. 

O. I think the jury w^ould like to know to wdiom you refer as 
Secret Service men. 

A. They are men furnished by the United States Government 
for the protection of the president. Secret Service men are two 
men, or several men, allotted to follow the president around and 
prevent assassins and cranks from getting at me. For instance, I 
would not allow them at one time to go to church with lue. 

19 



Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. I don't think that is com- 
petent. 

Mr. Pound : — I don't care to go any further than that. 

Q. You said you enhsted in the army as heutenant-colonel of 
the First Cavalry? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was your rank when you were mustered out : 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial. 

Mr. Pound: — I insist that it is entirely competent. C)f course, 
the only object I have is to show, if there was any promotion, 
bearing on the impairment of the man's health, and bearing on the 
man's life. 

Court : — 1 think the position in life of the plaintiff is competent 
and material here. 

A. I was made colonel ; I was recommended for brevet rank, 
and for a medal of honor, and T came back acting as brigade 
commander, in command of the brigade. 

O. You say brevet — 

A. I was recommended as brevet brigadier general. 

O. Now, you began to state, and I diverted you a moment ago, 
in regard to certain trips that you had made. Now, if you will 
take that up in point of order during the time of your j)residency, 
or anterior to that, and describe what there was in the shai)e of 
drinking, I will be much obliged to you. 

A. First, occasionally, but still more as president, I traveled over 
the country, following exactly the precedents of Mr. Cleveland 
and Mr. McKinley and my predecessors in the presidency, (^n 
those trips I never, while on the cars, touched any liquor or any 
wine, except just before I went to bed at night; if it was a short 
trip I touched nothing whatever; but if it was a long trip and the 
strain especially on my throat was very severe, after undressing 
at night, on the advice of Surgeon-General Rixey, and Dr. Holbrook 
Curtis, I would take either one or two goblets of milk with a tea- 
spoonful of brandy in each ; I would usually take that and then read 
for twenty minutes in bed by the electric light, and then I would 
sleep perfectly, and be all fresh the next morning. And on these 
trips on the average day, which meant nine, days out of ten, I 
would touch nothing during the day of any kind. For instance, 
that was the case passing through Michigan last fall; it was the 
case in Ohio last year. I would touch nothing of any kiml until 
I went to bed, and if it was a sliort Iri]), T would take nothing at 

20 



all; if it was a long trip, and my throat began to get exhausted, 
I usually then took either one or two tumblers of milk with a 
teaspoon of brandy in each tumbler. On occasions on that trip I 
would stop at some friend's house. For instance, in Toledo, Ohio, 
after my speech I went to the house of Mr. Shepley, to meet Mayor 
Whitlock. Mayor and Mrs. Whitlock were there, and Mr. and 
INIrs. Shepley and Regis Post and myself. On that occasion Mr. 
Sheplev asked ]\Iayor Whitlock and Mrs. Whitlock and all to take 
a little supper, and there was champagne. I drank a glass, and 
then found that they had a pitcher of milk, and then 1 took milk 
and doughnuts instead. 

O. That suited your appetite better? 

A. That suited my appetite better; and I should say on an 
average on those trips there would be about once a week when 
there would be some experience like that. 

O. When you had a hard day or a long trip, does that mean 
the distance, or how about the speeches that you were called upon 
to make, or both ? 

A. It means both the distance and the speeches. It is very 
difficult for anyone, who has not been through it, to realize the 
strain that there is in such a trip. For instance, I remember in 
Kansas in two days I made thirty-seven speeches. I began each 
day with a speech before breakfast, and on each day I finished 
my last speech at eleven in the evening, making nineteen one 
day, eighteen the preceding day; and often the speeches w^ere 
in railroad yards ; we were running races with railroad trains 
going by, and wdiistles blowing; often speeches out in the open 
air, where there was no chance to save my voice, but I had to 
trv to reach the people on the outside of the crowd who had come 
from a long distance and who I felt were entitled to hear me if 
they could, and it was as exhausting an experience as could pos- 
sibly be, generally; and every man who speaks like that must take 
care of himself all that is possible. 

O. Did you feel it was a duty you owed to the people that you 
should exert yourself to make yourself heard and understood? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as leading, immaterial and 
irrelevant. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Why w^as it that you exerted yourself to the 
degree that you did? 

A. There was no point in my going unless I used my voice to 
make myself heard. 

21 



O. Were 3'OU two or three times in the legislature? 

A. Three times. 

O. Did you have any experience in Xew York in relation to the 
mayoralty ? 

A. I ran for mayor in 1886, and was defeated by Abram S. 
Hewitt and Henry George. 

O. Another question on the subject of these state dinners; 
at these state dinners, state whether your consumption of cham- 
pagne did or did not exceed at the utmost, two glasses? 

A. It would be either one or tw^o glasses. 

O. During the last fourteen years, for medicinal purposes or 
otherwise, how many drinks of Avhiskcy have you had, to your best 
recollection ? 

A. Except as I have testified, in connection with the teaspoon- 
ful of brandy in the milk at night, and excepting as I have 
testified to in connection with the mint juleps, and on the advice 
of doctors, I believe that in the last fifteen years I have not had 
a dozen. I have not taken whiskey a dozen times. 

O. ] ask you, even on these trips, how many times have you 
in the last fifteen years carried even a small flash of whiskey 
with you? 

A. For the last fifteen years I have never carried a whiskey 
flask, or a brandy flask with me. Tn the days on the ranch, w-e 
never had whiskey on the ranch, but I used to then have a pocket 
flask of brandy which I would keep for accidents ; but I never 
used it, and have never used it, and I abandoned carrying it, 
and I have not carried it for twenty years. 

O. When you were on the ranch did you frequent saloons, or 
have any occasion to? 

A. I never w'ent into a saloon ; I don't believe that I ever went 
into a saloon in the western country except where it w^as at a little 
hotel, where the only two rooms would be a kitchen and a dining 
room where you had the dining table and everything else. 

Q. And bar, too? 

A. Tn the room w'ith the bar: and T don't ever remember of 
drinking at a bar; certainly not for fifteen or twenty years, and 
I do not remember of more than once or twice going into- a 
saloon, and as far as T can remember not at all in the last fifteen 
or twenty years. 

O. You said that you were in the city of Milwaukee — 

22 



A. I had no whiskey or brandy in my possession at that time 
or on any of these trips. 

O. You said you were in the city of Milwaukee. Did you 
get out of there without swallowing any lager beer? 

A. On this occasion, yes. 

O. I think you covered it, but I want to be sure; just one 
question, whether what you have said of the fifteen years does 
that also apply to your methods during the year 1912 in the campaign 
as well as the rest of the time? 

A. It applies exactly ; what I have said about the trips while 
I was president applies exactly to the trips since I have been 
president, including 1912. 

O. Now I call your attention to the state of Ohio ; what is 
the fact as to whether you made a personal canvass, as strong as 
you were able, for that state? 

A. I did, for nine days; I was nine days in the state. 

Q. Without any surplus words, tell us how you traversed the 
state, from what point you entered and to what point you went, 
whether V-shaped or parallel, or how? 

A. We went around the state, and I think with certain zig- 
zags. We went across the north of the state to Toledo, through 
the middle and eastern parts, and then the western part of the 
state to Columbus, and then to Cleveland, and I then spent Sunday 
with Mr. Garfield at his home, and continued the trip; I think 
on Monday was the last day. It may have been Monday and 
Tuesday. 

Q. Did you make an address to the constitutional convention in 
the state of Ohio? 

A. I made an address to the constitutional convention. 

O. About how long before or after the campaign trip for the 
delegation was that? 

A. That address was made in February. I went to Columbus 
— I had prepared the address five or six days in advance ; I went 
to Columbus and stayed at the house of Dr. Washington Gladden ; 
I made the address and came home, I should say it was a month 
later that I made my speech in Carnegie Hall, which was prac- 
tically the opening of the primary campaign — Carnegie Hall, 
New York. 

O. There was a time in your life that you thought you had 
wasted it on the law business, I believe? 

A. I studied law for a year after leaving college. 

23 



Q. What I want to ask you is this : as a part of your educa- 
tion curriculum, were you a member of debating societies, or any- 
thing of that kind, so as to get a special training as to public 
speaking, or have you had to rely upon your own experience? 

A. No, I never got any training in public speaking until T ran 
for the legislature. 

O. Did your first experience come as a candidate? 

A. I think my first experience did not come as a candidate. I 
think it came when I was in the legislature. 

Q. You mentioned Dr. Rixey. Will you kindly tell me a little 
in detail who Dr. Rixey is and was, and how he came to be 
connected with you ? 

A. The head of the medical department of the navy is called 
the Surgeon-General of the navy, just as the head of the medical 
department of the army is called the Surgeon-General of the army : 
and the president usually has either the Surgeon-General of the 
navy or the Surgeon-General of the army as his attendant ; some- 
times some army or navy doctor other than the Surgeon-General. 
When I became president Dr. Rixey was Surgeon-General of the 
navy under President McKinley and was President McKinley's 
family doctor. He had attended President McKinley through his 
shooting when he died, and he was transferred to me and became 
my family doctor all during the seven and a half years that I was 
in the White House. There was an occasional time when he would 
be absent from Washington on official business. I think I sent 
him once for three months to the Philippines on official business ; 
but when he stayed in Washington he was with me on most of my 
trips. I should say that he must have been with me nine-tenths 
of the time that I was president, and he used then to see me 
every day and often many times a day, and he looked after me 
to keep me in — 

Q. He would see you at what times? 

A. Oh, it would depend ; if he thought that T needed attention, 
he would see me before breakfast, and wait and see me after 
dinner. 

Q. How late at night has he been at the White House? 
A. Twelve or one o'clock ; he w^ould wait sometimes and come 
up after dinner if there was something — you see the president 
has got to go on with his business ; he can't be sick ; he has got 
to go on with his business; and if I had any trifling ailment he 
would have to be with me; if T had an attack of indigestion or 

24 



anything of that kind he would have to see that I could go right 
on exactly as if I didn't have it. 

Q. A sort of physical insurer of the president? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. Your family doctor at home in New York, at that time 
and for many years has been who? 

A. Dr. Alexander Lambert; he has been a close personal friend 
and the family doctor, and has been on trips with me. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION : 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. Colonel Roosevelt, you have told us your 
age, and that your boyhood was mainly spent in New York? 

A. In New York; my boyhood was mainly spent in New York. 

Q. That is you spent the winter-time perhaps in the city, and 
the summer time at your country place? 

A. At my father's, where he had a country place. 

Q. By that you mean a place outside of the city where the 
family spent the summer? 

A. It was generally a farm where the family spent the 
summer. 

Q. You have never lived in the state of Michigan, have you? 

A. I never lived in the state of Michigan. 

Q. And have never in the last eight or ten years been here, 
except upon a flying trip? 

A. Excepting on a comparatively short trip ; I was several days 
here when I was inspecting the Naval Militia. 

Q. That was how many years ago? 

A. I think it was fifteen years ago. 

Q. So that I would be correct in saying that within the last 
ten years you have scarcely been within the state excepting upon 
a short flying trip? 

A. Excepting upon short visits through the state, usually to 
speak. 

O. Your acquaintance in Marquette County is somewhat 
limited, is it? 

A. It is limited. 

Q. Do you know any of the residents here? 

A. I know Mr. Shiras. 

Q. Who? 

A. Mr. George Shiras. 

O. And nobody else? 

25 



A. I have known j\Ir. Shiras better than anyone else, but I 
have met various men from the northern peninsula. 

Q. Do you remember anybody else that you know in Marquette 
County ? 

A. I know Mr. Hill. 

Q. He is your attorney? 

A. My attorney. 

Q. You have known him since this case began? 

A. No, I think I met him last year. 

O. Did you know him at that time? 

A. There Avere several gentlemen got on board the train while 
I was passing through here. 

Q. He may have been one of them? 

A. I think he was one of them, sir, but I am not sure. 

Q. That was your only acquaintance with Mr. Hill? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Mr. Shiras is really a resident of another state entirely, 
and comes here sometimes in the summer, is that correct? 

A. I don't know. 

O. But you don't understand that he makes his home here all 
the time, do you? 

A. I couldn't answer that; I know that his grandfather and 
father were here, and that he has been here; but I don't know 
whether he lives here or not. 

Q. Or whether. he lives here in the winter time? 

A. I know that he is off on hunting trips, natural history trips 
a great deal, both summer and winter, and my understanding is 
that he is in Washington in the winter, but I may be mistaken. 

Q. It was in Washington that you made his acquaintance? 

A. I made his acquaintance I think when he was in Congress, 
but my chief friendship with him sprang from the fact that he 
is a student of natural history, and so am I. 

Q. Mr. Shiras was in Congress from Pittsburg? 

A. In Congress from Pittsburg. 

Q. Do you know that that is his present home? 

A. I don't know ; I have been told so. 

Q. During the time that you have related to the jury your 
main occupation has been that connected in some way with 
politics, has it not? 

A. At which time during the last fifteen years? 

26 



Q. During the time you specifically related to the jury, begin- 
ning with your career in the legislature? 

A. Beginning with my career in the legislature T should say I 
was as much a writer and historian as I was a public servant, 
until I went to the Spanish War; but while I was governor and 
president, of course, those were my main occupations. 

O. Since that time, since your return from Africa you have 
been engaged with the Outlook, that is a publication in New York 
City? 

A. I have. 

Q. And somewhat in politics also? 

A. And in politics also ; and might I amend my former answer ; 
as I explained, I was for about thirteen years a great deal on my 
cattle ranch in the West. 

Q. That was prior to the time I speak about? 

A. Well, it was subsequent to my being in the legislature. 

Q. It was? 

A. It was; it began the last year I was in the legislature. 

Q. Now, your acquaintances and vast number of associates 
while you were in Washington on business and in the city of 
Albany, were men also engaged in politics? 

A. A good many of them were, and also practically every his- 
torian and naturalist to be found in the neighborhood of either 
Albany or Washington. 

O. You had among your acquaintances and associates a great 
many senators, did you not? 

A. I knew almost every member of the Senate of the United 
States. 

O. You received them in the White House, and were invited 
to their homes? 

A. I received them in the White House. Only on rare occa- 
sions did they invite me to their homes. 

Q. You knew also and associated with and received a great 
many congressmen, did you not? 

A. I received all the congressmen that came. 

Q. And on your trips you were received by them and enter- 
tained more or less? 

A. Sometimes. 

Q. On most of the trips? 

A. Entertained by them, no. 

Q. You would be met by them? 

27 



A. I would be met by them on the trips while I was president, 
congressmen, senators, governors, private citizens, all met me. 

O. You were banqueted on those trips frequently ? 

A. It would depend upon what you mean by frequently. 

O. You went to various banquets? 

A. Yes. 

O. On nearly all of those speaking trips that you speak of? 

A. On almost all the speaking trips while I was president there 
would be public banquets. 

Q. Now, since that time you have been entertained in various 
homes of public men during the trips, such, for instance, as the 
home that you mentioned in Toledo? 

A. Mr. Shepley, I don't think you would call him a public 
man. 

p. Well, at other places, you have been entertained by public 
men on these trips? 

A. Only rarely; I was much more apt to be entertained by 
private citizens. 

O. Do I understand you to say that during all that time you 
ne\er took anything in the way of intoxicants? 

A. What do you say, sir? 

O. If you took anything in the way of intoxicants it was mainly 
a little brandy and milk? 

A. No, you didn't understand me to say that; you understood 
me to say that about spirituous liquors. 

O. I will confine it to spirituous liquors. The only spirituous 
liquors you took in the main, that is in general, would be a little 
brandy mixed w'ith milk ? 

A. A teaspoonful in a tumbler of milk, at night. 

O. And nothing else? 

A. Nothing else. 

Q. And that you never, in fifteen years, drank more than a 
dozen glasses of whiskey? 

A. Oh, I didn't drink a dozen glasses of whiskey in fifteen 
years. 

O. Perhaps I have exaggerated it? 

A. Yes. 

O. You never drank any whiskey, then? 

A. No, I have said that in the fifteen years, outside of the 
teaspoonful of brandy that I have given you, and outside of the 
mint juleps of which I have spoken, it would be probably an 

28 



over-statement to say that a dozen times I have drunk whiskey 
on the occasion of having a fever attack or some occasion Hke 
that; but I never drank a glass of whiskey on those occasions; 
the doctor would give me usually a little bit in a little tumbler 
with the lines graduated on it. 

Q. A little graduated glass? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In that perhaps a teaspoonful or something like that? 

A. A small amount ; I couldn't tell you how much. 

Q. And that you never took any whiskey or spirituous liquors 
except on the prescription of a doctor? 

A. Excepting as I have described, I never did. 

O. And you never, as I understand you, drank a high-ball ? 

A. No. 

Q. And you never have drunk more than five or six glasses 
of mint juleps in a year? 

A. I have said I didn't average as many as five or six glasses 
in a year; I don't believe I ever drank as many as half a dozen 
glasses in a year ; and you know those are not tumblers ; those 
are small glasses of mint julep. 

Q. I don't know about the glasses you speak of. Do you 
understand that mint julep is made of whiskey? 

A. So I understand ; made either of whiskey or brandy. 

Q. Now% your main drink, if you drink anything, is a little 
light, wine ? 

A. The main spirituous drink, if I drink anything, is a little 
light wine. 

Q. By light wine, what do you mean ? 

A. I mean so-called white wine, California w^hite wine, or 
Sauterne, and sometimes at home a couple of wine glasses of 
Madeira instead of white wirfe. 

Q. It would be either white wine or Madeira wine? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Any other kinds of wine? 

A. I may have drunk a glass of sherry occasionally, but very 
occasional. 

Q. Any others? 

A. As I have described, at banquets or at the big dinners. 

Q. I am asking about light wines ? 

A. No. 

O. No red wine? .... 

29 



A. I don't drink red wine. 

O. You don't drink any red wine? 

A. I wouldn't say I never drank any red wine. I may have 
been at some place where they passed around a glass of red wine 
and I may have touched it to my lips, but I don't like it ; I don't 
drink it. 

Q. You don't keep any wine of that kind in your house, do 
you? 

A. Red wine? 

Q. Do you keep wine in your house? 

A. Yes. 

O. Do you keep brandy? 

A. Brandy and whiskey, both. 

O. All right in your home? 

A. I keep it at the house. 

O. Did you keep brandy and whiskey and wine and all these 
liquors in the White House ? 

A. I did ; I inherited President McKinely's cellar, too. 

Mr. Andrews : — I ask the Court to strike out that which is 
not responsive to the question asked. 

Court: — You may strike out that part of the question. 

Mr. Pound : — Note an exception, please. I think he may state 
that he continued — I think it is competent for the witness to say 
that he continued the system that he found. 

Court: — If the witness answers that way, that he contiiuied the 
system in the White House it will be received. 

A. May I amend my answer? 

Mr. Andrews: — O. If you cannot answer directly, amend it 
any way you want to. 

A. I can answer it directly, certainly. 

Q. I ask the question — 

Mr. Pound : — Wait a minute ; let him answer it. 

Mr. Andrews : — O. I simply ask, did you keep liquors in the 
White House while you were president? 

A. T continued the custom I found in the White House, and 
kept liquors in the White House. 

O. Did you keep two butlers to take care of liquor in the White 
House ? 

A. Not to take care of the liquor in the White House : tiiey 
did that incidentally, as they had done it under the previous admin- 
istration. 

30 



I\Ir. Andrews : — I ask that that be striken out as not responsive 
to any question I asked him. 

Court: — That answer may stand. 

Mr. Andrews : — O. Now, you frequently go to banquets ? 

A. Yes. 

O. You drink wine and champagne there? 

A. I drink champagne or white wine ; I prefer light wine, white 
wine. 

O. Or both? 

A. Very rarely. 

O. You do sometimes? 

A. I doubt if I do, but it would be possible on some occasions 
that I have drunk both. 

O. Do you drink brandy at the banquets? 

A. No. 

O. Have you ever drunk brandy at a banquet? 

A. I never have. 

O. Nor anywhere else? 

A. Except as I have described. 

O. Ateaspoonful in a glass of milk? 

A. A teaspoonful in a glass of milk. 

O. Do you know Scotch whiskey? 

A. I have seen it. 

O. Do you keep it in your home? 

A. That I could not tell you. I know we did keep both Scotch 
whiskey and rye; because the guests at my house when they come 
are asked at dinner whether they wish whiskey, and I know they 
used to be asked whether they wished Scotch or rye ; whether we 
have it now or not, I do not know. 

O. In addition to keeping it you offer and serve liquors in your 
home to your guests, do you ? 

A. I do. 

O. Mr. Roosevelt, has that been your custom a good while? 

A. I think it has been my custom ever since I have had a home, 
but that I am not sure of; in the first — 

Mr. Andrews : — I think that answers the question. 

Court : — You may proceed. 

A. It is possible it has only been my custom since I was governor 
or president ; inasmuch as I never drink whiskey or brandy, I can- 
not be sure of it. I think that we had whiskey or brandy in the 

31 



house before I was governor or president; I know we have had 
it since. 

Mr. Andrews: — O. Is that all the answer you care to give? 

A. That is the answer. 

O. When did you first meet Mr. Pound? 

A. The first time I remember meeting him was last fall. 

Q. Do you know a Mr. Wallace of Detroit? 

A. Yes.' 

Q. What is his business? 

A. I don't know. 

O. Who had charge of the beginning of this suit, if you know? 

A. That I cannot tell you. 

O. Don't you even know who began this lawsuit? 

A. I was in Mercy Hospital, laid up with the shooting when 
the suit was begun. This libel was brought to my attention after 
I had been shot. 

O. Do you know? 

A. I am telling you. You asked me if I didn't e\'en know that; 
I am telling you why I didn't know. 

O. Do you know who began the suit? 

A. I do not. 

O. Do you know that Mr. Wallace had charge of it? 

A. I knew that he knew of it, whether he had charge of it 
or not. 

Q. Do you know whether he had charge of the employment of 
counsel ? 

A. That I cannot say. 

O. Had you met Mr. Pound up to that time? 

A. T may have met him : T may have met him before that 
time on a trij) in ^lichigan. 

Q. Have you any memory of it? 

A. I don't remember whether I even met him or not. I met 
hundreds of people then. 

Q. Was Mr. Pound employed by you? 

A. Is he employed by me now? 

Q. Was he originally employed by you? 

A. You mean personally? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

A. In person, no; I was in ?ilercy Hospital on my back. 

Q. I simply ask you whether you personally employed Mr. 
Pound. Can you answer that directly? 

32 



A. Of course it is possible that they asked me — it was by my 
direction that he was employed, but I didn't see him personally. 

Q. Did Mr. Wallace have charge of the beginning of this suit? 

A. Not that I know of. 

O. You don't know of any connection he had with it? 

A. I know he was consulted about it. 

Q. There were printed in the newspapers interviews in which 
Mr. Wallace stated that he had charge of the case, and that the 
Progressive organization of this state had charge of it. Have 
you seen those interviews? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Have you borne the expense of the matter of taking testi- 
mony and all that kind of thing in this case yourself? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You have? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And it has not been done under the direction of the organi- 
zation here in Alichigan? 

A. It has not been. 

Q. Have you in person had charge of it? 

A. Mr. Pound has had charge of it. 

Q. Just Mr. Pound? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. Andrews: — I think that is all, Mr. Roosevelt. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION: 

Mr. Pound : — Q. As I understand it, you have no recollection 
of having seen Mr. Pound either in Milwaukee or Chicago prior 
to the beginning of this suit, which was sometime in the month 
of October? 

A. I have no recollection of it. Mr. Pound. 

O. As matter of fact, you communicated, when you had suf- 
ficiently recovered, your desire directly to Mr. Pound by letter, did 
you not? 

A. I did. 

Mr. Andrews : — That is objected to as leading and incompe- 
tent. The letter is the best evidence. 

Court: — The objection is, that the letter would be the best evi- 
dence, ]\Ir. Pound. 

Mr. Pound : — That is right, and I do not propose to go into 

33 



the contents of the letter. I am only wanting to know whether 
the witness assumes the responsibility of direction. 

A. I assume full responsibility of the direction, and no organiza- 
tion has any responsibility, excepting myself, or has paid, or will 
pay a dollar. 

O. Have you directed all the proceedings from that time up to 
the present, so far as the proceedings is concerned? 

A. T have directed all proceedings : I have communicated with 
vou and you have communicated with me direct. The only excep- 
tion has been where I have communicated with Mr. Bowers and 
Mr. \^an Benschoten as counsel in Xew York City. 

O. And the reason for that was, they were there in Xew York, 
and you were not accessible to me ? 

A. The reason was, you were in Detroit; I wanted a lawyer 
that I could consult at once on any phase of the case that came up 
without your coming on from Detroit. 

O. And you were directed to get counsel close at hand? 

A. I had to get counsel close at hand. I consulted you as to 
whom I should have. 



Henry Ral tii ii:r. sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : — 

,AIr. Pouno: — O. Are you a resident of the city of Ishpeming? 

A. Yes sir. 

Q. Do you hold any office there? 

A. I am city assessor. 

O. Do you know George A. Newett? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What is his business? 

A. He is the publisher of the Iron Ore. 

O. I show you Exhibit A, and ask you if that is the paper 
known to you as the Iron Ore? 

A. It looks like the paper. 

O. How long have you been a resident of the city of Ishpeming? 

Court : — Will counsel concede the time ? 

Mk. Andrews : — I was about to concede the publication that 
he claims. 

Mr. Pound: — I don't ask for the concession. I only ask the 
question. 

34 



Court: — Go ahead in 3-0111- own way. 

Mr. Pound:— O. How long have you been a resident of the 
city of Ishpeming? 

A. I should judge about thirty-four years. 

Q. How long have you held the office of assessor ? 

A. Five years this spring. 
^ Q. As assessor, is it a part of your business to investigate and 
hnd out from the individual citizens there the ownership of their 
propert}- .•' 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you place it on the roll, do you not? 
A. Yes, sir. 

^ Q. From that, and by reputation, you come to know him as 
ti:e owner of this paper ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. And he has been how long; how long has he published this 
it you know." ' 

A. I don't know if he owns the paper: I know he publishes it 

g. How long; do you know whether it has been published five 
or ten or fifteen or twenty or twenty-five vears, judging by your 
own residence there? 

A. I couldn't remember the number of years. 

Q. Ten years? 

A. Oh, more than that. 

Q. Do you think it would be twenty years, or thirty years— 
T want your best judgment? 

A. I couldn't remember the number of years exactly. 

Q. What is your best judgment, how many years do 3'ou think? 

A. Well, probably — 

Q. Probably about that time? 

A. Probably about that time, I should judge. 

Jacop. a. Riis. sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound;— O. Your name is Jacob A. Riis^ 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. How old a man are you? 

A. Sixty-four. 

Q. What year were vou born in? 

A. 1849. 

35 



Q. Where were you born? 

A. In Denmark. 

Q. What part? 

A. Ribe. 

Q. How far is that from Copenhagen — that is the only place I 
know about. 

A. It is across the country, on the North Sea. 

O. How long did you live in Denmark ? 

A. Until I was nearly twenty-one. 

Q. Did you learn any occupation there? 

A. Yes, I learned the carpenter trade. 

Q. Did you come directly from Denmark to America ? 

A. I came by way of Norway and Scotland. 

Q. Where was the point of your destination? 

A. New York. 

O. What year did you land in New York? 

A. 1870. 

Q. At that time what familiarity had you with the English 
language ? 

A. I knew it very well. 

Q. What did you devote yourself to at first in New York, in 
the way of work ? 

A. I was a miner for a little while, a coal miner ; and I worked 
at the carpenter trade; a dozen different jobs for the first two 
years; a little farming; I did everything that came to hand. 

0. Where was it that you were employed, as to the place? 

A. The first place T was employed was out in western Pennsyl- 
vania. 

Mr. Andrews : — May I suggest, that while this may be inter- 
esting, I can hardly see that it would bear upon this case. 

Court ; — I think it is fairly a matter for the jury to know some- 
thing about the witness, who he is, and what he is, as bearing upon 
his credibility. 

Mr. Pound; — O. Whereabouts were you in Pennsylvania? 

A. On the Allegheny River, at Brady's Bend. 

O. And then did you return to New York City!" 

A. Yes, T returned to New York that summer. 

Q. Was there a time when you dei)arted from the carpenter 
business into some other business, or did you join any other line 
with your carpenter work ? 

36 



A. I had very often difficulty in finding carpenter work, and 
then I did what I could. I lived most of one winter skinning 
musk-rats and selling their skins. 

O. Did you ever become acquainted with the plaintiff in this 
suit, Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. When, as near as you can tell me, did you become acquainted 
witii him, what year? 

A. That was when I had written "How the Other Half Lives." 
That was in 1890, or 1891, I think. 

O. At that time you had become an author, too, had you? 

A. Yes, I became an author ; I was a newspaper man, and 
stationed at the police headquarters — 

O. Just answer the question. How long had you been a news- 
paper man as you have described, just about, at that time? 

A. About fifteen years. 

Q. By newspaper man. you mean a reporter, or editorial writer? 

A. A reporter. 

Q. What were the circumstances — very briefly — of your getting 
acquainted with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Those were the circumstances. I had written that book, 
which was a summons to the people of New York to help the — 

O. Never mind telling what that was. You had written that 
book, and how did Mr. Roosevelt come in contact with you? 

A. That had a direct bearing on how Mr. Roosevelt came into 
my life. 

O. What, if anything, called your attention to the fact that there 
was such a man as Theodore Roosevelt in the world? 

A. I had seen him before, coming down from Albany at the 
head of an investigating committee to investigate the police in New 
York City. I wrote this book, and he came to my office looking for 
me, and he left his card on my desk, for I was out, and on the card 
were these words — 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to what was written on the card, as 
not competent. 

Court: — The objection will be sustained. 

Mr Pound : — That is directly competent. 

Court: — I think it is not competent. The card itself would be 
the best evidence, if it was competent. 

Mr. Pound : — The object of taking the testimony — for the pur- 
pose of having your Honor understand what is iii my mind — - 

37 



(^\n^-Ki- : — 1 ^vill be glad to have you make me understand on all 
occasions. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. At any rate, by reason of any intelligence you 
received at that time, card or otherwise, did you finally meet? 
A. Yes ; he said he came to help me. 
O. Where did you meet him? 
A. At jiolice headquarters, at my office. 

O. At that time what was Mr. Roosevelt, if anything, in an 
official way? 

A. He was Civil Service Commissioner at Washington. 
O. You became acquainted ? 
A. Indeed we did, yes. 

Q. Will you go on and describe your acquaintanceship, whether 
it was a distant acquaintance or an intimate acquaintance, and 
what it ripened into ? 

A. I was in a big fight, and he came to help me. 
Mr. Andrews: — We object to that. 
Court : — That answer will be stricken out. 
Mr. Pound: — O. Did you become intimate or not? 
A. Indeed we did, yes. f made him my brother then and there, 
and he has been so ever since. 

O. Will you state what kind of work it was that you were iden- 
tified in, if anything? 

A. In the legislature he had been fighting the same battle that 
I was fighting at police headquarters, and that was the attraction, 
you know. 

O. In carrying that out. tell the jury whether you were often 
in his company or went anywhere together, or anything of that 
kind; did it call for an investigation, is the point I am getting at? 
A. It is difficult for me to proceed unless T am allowed to say 
what is in my mind, that we were approaching a big battle, and he 
was in it and 1 was in it. 

]\1r. Andrews: — We object to that. 
Court: — That will be stricken out. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Did you make any investigations, so as to 
ascertain the exact condition, one with tlie other? 
A. Yes. 

Q. What time of day or night were you engaged in that work? 
A. After that he came to police headquarters and became presi- 
dent of the police force in New York City : and being the president 
of the police force of Xew York City, we worked together, not 

38 



only every day, because as police reporter I was there, but very 
often we worked all night together. 

O. Where would you be? 

A. Patrolling the streets of New York City, seeing if the police 
were patrolling their beats, which was a highly important matter, 
and they were not doing it until he begun that; and going round 
the slums and among the poor people in those despicable tenement 
houses. 

O. Did that keep you in his company for hours at a time? 

A. For whole days and whole nights. 

Q. You said you were a reporter at that time. What paper 
were you reporter on ? 

A. The New York Sun. 

Q. During the time Mr. Roosevelt was police commissioner, did 
that work that you have described and your association together 
continue ? 

A. All the time, uninterruptedly. 

O. After his term expired, or he ceased to be police commis- 
sioner, what did he then become? 

A. He went from police headquarters to be Assistant Secre- 
tary of the Navy. 

Q. When he was Assistant Secretary of the Navy did you see 
as much of him as you had while he was police commissioner? 

A. For two or three months, no, because I was at my head- 
quarters in my office. 

O. After that? 

A. After that the war with Spain was brewing, and the Sun 
sent me to \\^ashington to be sure and watch the outbreak of it, 
and I was there. 

O. \Mien you were in Washington did you resume your 
acquaintanceship and intercourse with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Yes, just as close as it could be. 

O. What times of day during his waking hours have you seen 
the man? 

A. At all hours. 

O. In the morning? 

A. Tn the morning, and all day, and all night. 

O. After he ceased to be Assistant Secretary of the Navy, did 
you become separated? 

A. He went to the war. 

39 



O. You became separated ? 

A. Yes ; I didn't see him until lie came back. 

O. Where did you first see him on his return? 

A. When he landed on American soil at Montauk Point, Long 
Island. 

O. The camp at Montauk Point ? 

A. The camp at Montauk Point ; when he first landed on the 
shore I was there to see him. 

O. After that did your friendly relationship continue? 

A. Yes, indeed : it will continue to the end. 
Q. What is the fact as to whether or not you were in sym- 
pathy with one another as to various ideas of public work at that 
time ? 

A. I just loved the man. 

O. During the time he was governor did your intimacy con- 
tinue between you and Mr. Roosevelt personally? 

A. Yes, all the time. 

O. And during the time he was president of the United States? 

A. Yes. 

O. Is that also true? 

A. I came there as often as I possibly could, and stayed under 
the roof of the White House for days together. 

O. You say as often as you could; was that unfrequently, or 
quite frequently? 

A. Quite frequently, yes, sir; just as frequently as I could 
manage to see him, and talk to iiim, I made excuse to go to Wash- 
ington. 

O. What was your business at that time before this newspaper 
work ? 

A. I was a lecturer and magazine writer. 

O. Did that call upon you to travel ? 

A. I had given up new'spaper work then. 

O. Did that call upon you to travel ? 

A. It called upon me to travel continually. 

O. What did you do. if you did anything, in your desire to 
see your friend, as to whether, when you went away from Xew 
York, you took Washington in. either going or coming? 

.\. Yes, I managed to go by Washington, whether going north 
or south or east or west. 

O. You say the same degree of friendship continued between 
you during the time he was president? 

40 



A. Certainly. 

O. After his presidential term, when he went to Africa, you 
don't claim to have seen him then? 

A. No. 

O. How long before he took ship was it that you last saw him? 

A. He went right off ; I saw him about a week before. 

O. Upon his return to New York upon that occasion, how long 
had he been in New York before you saw him? 

A. I was one of a committee that went down to receive him, 
down the bay. 

O. And since that time has the same degree of intimacy existed 
between you and Mr. Roosevelt that had existed theretofore? 

A. Yes, always. 

O. He is your friend now? 

A. He is. 

O. You are his friend? 

A. Indeed I am. 

O. During the entire time of your acquaintance with Theodore 
Roosevelt, will you tell this jury whether you have ever seen him 
in the slightest degree under the influence of liquor? 

A. Oh, Lord, no. 

O. Will you state to the jury what you can say as to whether 
he is a frequent user of liquor or not? 

A. I never heard that he is a drinking man. The statement 
that he is a drinking man in the sense of being a frequent user 
of liquor is a monstrous lie. 

O. Does he use little or does he use it freely, is the point T 
am getting at? 

A. I best can tell you about that by telling you what I myself 
have seen. 

O. I ask you for that. 

A. We have traveled by day and by night imder the most 
strenuous circumstances you can imagine ; I have been with him 
on his trains when he went campaigning, and that is quite strenu- 
ous work ; I have been with him in every conceivable circumstance 
of strain and excitement, and never have I seen that man resort 
to liquor, never. He will in his family — when I came there I was 
not considered a stranger in the house ; I came regularly, and there 
is not any wine on the table or anything of that kind, because I 
came in there as a familiar friend. If others were in there very 

41 



likely there would be a glass of light wine or something of that sort, 
or possibly at glass of ehampagne. Of course at official dinners 
in the White House there was wine on the table. 

O. I ask you another question : during your intimacy with this 
gentleman, is he a blasphemous man, does he curse and swear ? 

A. He is a gentleman that I never in my life heard use any 
unclean or profane language. I have heard him use the expression 
"Godfrey"' when he gets very much excited ; I don't believe that is 
blasphemous. 

O. Can you say from your knowledge of Mr. Roosevelt that 
there is a single characteristic that you can name about that man 
that is not an attribute of a gentleman? 

A. Not one. 

CROSS EXAMINATION: 

Mr. Andrews: — O. Your feeling towards Mr. Roosevelt began 
a long time ago? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. In those early days when you were associated with him 
night and day, that was back perhaps in the early nineties, when 
he was police commissioner? 

A. Yes, that is right, 1895. 

O. Fifteen or eighteen years ago? 

A. Yes. 

O. You have been yourself in the work — that is you have been 
an atithor, and you have been in what is commonly known as the 
uplift work, have you? 

A. Yes; I am in it now. 

O. Have you been a professor of anything? 

A. No, never. 

O. In a college or school? 

A. No. 

Q. Just a writer? 

A. And reporter. 

O. And lecturer'* 

A. Yes, and rejxirter. 

Q. Your work has been, for perhaps twenty years, along those 
lines? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You have never been a politician ? 

A. No ; 1 have always been mixed up in politics, but I don't 
think I am a politician. 

42 



Q. You have never been an office seeker or office holder? 

A. I have refused office numberless times ; I never accepted any. 

Q. Your association and your work has taken you rather outside 
of that line of business? 

A. No, no ; I was right in the middle of it. I live in New 
York City, and I have been fighting Tammany Hall for thirty years. 

Q. As to Mr. Roosevelt, you had gotten to a place where nobody 
could make you believe — you would overlook any imperfection or 
anything of that kind that appeared in Mr. Roosevelt, any little 
failings ? 

A. There were no failings of the kind you are thinking of 
to overlook. 

Q. You think he is apparently perfect? 

A. No, he is human, and he can make his mistakes. 

Q. You think he is human? 

A. I do, I think he is human ; that is why I love him. 

Q. You don't mean by your statement to say that I\Ir. Roosevelt 
is one without fault ? 

A. Oh, no ; I have been fighting with him from time to time. 

O. You have been fighting with him ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do I understand you to say that you yourself do not take 
licjuor ? 

A. Oh, yes, I take a glass of wine once in a while ; that is, I did ; 
I cannot now; I have some heart trouble and I cannot do it any 
more. 

O. You never have seen Mr. Roosevelt take anything but just 
a glass of wine once in a while, just as you spoke about? 

A. No ; I say I have been with him under circumstances where, 
if a man would take anything — 

O. You never have seen him take anything but a glass of wine? 

A. No. 

O. But perhaps some milk with a little brandy? 

A. No, not any brandy. 

Q. No brandy at all? 

A. Not any brandy that I have ever seen. 

O. Just milk? 

A. Just milk; what would he have brandy for? 

Q. I don't know. 

A. Neither do I. 

43 



O. If he took brandy, perhaps it was in a little graduated glass, 
or it has been something of that kind? 

A. I don't believe he ever did ; I am sure he never did ; I know- 
he drinks milk. 

O. Nobody could make you believe — that is, you are not ready 
to believe that Mr. Roosevelt even took brandy in the milk? 

A. I know that he didn't take brandy in the milk. 

Q. Do you know he does not drink any champagne? 

A. No, I say I know^ he does drink champagne, because I have 
seen him do it; I think I stated that his habit was in the White 
House at dinner, when there was company, to drink a glass of 
champagne. 

O. Or mint julep? 

A. No, no. 

Q. Never? 

A. No, never; mixed drinks didn't fit in his constitution. 

O. And never drank juleps at all? 

A. No. 

O. Nobody w^ould make you believe that he drank mint juleps? 

A. 1 would not say he does not, but I never saw him take it, 
and I don't believe he does ; and I have seen him so I w^ould know 
if he did. 

RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION : 

Mr. Pounds:— O. What is the fact, Mr. Riis, as to whether 
since Mr. Roosevelt returned from Africa, the same conditions 
existed as to his temperance and sobriety as before, so far as your 
experience is concerned ? 

A. When he returned from Africa? 

Q. Yes, up to the present time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. As I understand, you are simply testifying to what you saw? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Now, do vou know from your knowledge and acquaintance- 
ship whether Mr. Roosevelt had any fever at all of any kind? 
A. Fever? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No, I don't know that he ever had any fever of any kind. 

O. Your testimony is, as you say, from your work and your 
conversation in conjunction with the gentleman, in your common 
carrying out of your ideas, is that right? 

A. Yes. 

44 



Alexander Lambert, sworn on the part of the plaintitT, testi- 
fied as follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Fifty-one. 

O. Where is your residence? 

A. New York City. 

O. How long have you been a resident of New York City? 

A. Fifty-one years. 

Q. Wat is your business? 

A. Physician. 

Q. When did you become a physician? 

A. In 1888. 

Q. What school did you graduate from in the first instance? 

A. The College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia Uni- 
versity, New York. 

Q. You received your degree there ? 

A. I did. 

O. Will you state whether you have taken any other supple- 
mental studies and received any additional degree or had any addi- 
tional training besides your original course to become a physician? 

A. I received no additional degree since I took my Doctor of 
Medicine. I had received two degrees previous to that. 

O. What were those? 

A. A.B. and Ph.B. 

O. \Yi\\ you kindly tell us whether you have been connected 
with any institution of learning, or hospital, or eleemosynary insti- 
tution ? 

A. I have been. I have been physician at the Bellevue Hospital. 
New York, for eighteen or nineteen years ; I have been professor 
of medicine in a medical school in New York, an infirmary for 
crippled children ; I am a professor of clinics and medicine in New 
York University, and I am consulting physician to the New York 
Infirmary connected with the Nyack and Greenwich hospitals. 

Q. Have you devoted your life since you have become a physi- 
cian exclusively to the following of your profession ? 

A. Yes, I have. 

O. Have you, in addition to your actual practice, been an author 
in any respect, in regard to the treatment of the sick? 

A. I have written a good deal, both on matters of general medi- 
cine, and I have been particularly interested in the study of alcohol- 

45 



ism, and T have been esj^ecially interested in studying the effects of 
it upon the patients in Hellevue Hospital. 

O. Can you tell how many men in your time, as near as you can 
approximately, have come under your observation ? 

A. I kept an accurate account for ten years, and in ten years 
it was thirty thousand ; since then I have seen ten thousand more ; 
I should say two or three thousand a year. 

Q. Do you know the i)laintiff in this case, Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. I do. 

O. How long have you known him? 

A. I have known him since the year 189 1. 

0. At that time where did he live? 

A. He was Civil Service Commissioner in Washington at that 
time. 

O. Since that time has he ever resided somewhat closely to you 
so that you were neighbors as well as acquaintances? 

A. In 1895, when he was police commissioner in New^ York 
and went down to Oyster P.ay, he was always in New York and I 
have seen him constantly. 

0. Are you his ]>ersonal friend? 

A. T am both his intimate friend and his family physician. 

O. When you first made his acquaintance, was it in a jM-ofes- 
sional way ? 

A. I first called there professionally, and then it grew into a 
friendship, an intimate friendship ; and T went oft' on several of his 
hunting trips with him. 

O. \\'ill you state, during the time of your acquaintanceship 
with Theodore Roosevelt, how many of his hunting trips have 
you been with him ui)on ? 

A. I went with him in 1893, I905» ^"^^ ^90/- 

O. Where was the first? 

A. At Medora. North Dakota, a presidential bear hunt and wolf 
hunt, in ( )klahoma and in Colorado, and a bear hunt in the swamps 
of Louisiana. 

O. The first place was where? 

A. At Aledora, North Dakota, at his ranch on the T.ittle 
^Missouri River. 

Q. About how long would those trii)s consume? 

A. The first one, we were gone a month, and the second about 
six weeks, and the third about two weeks. 

46 



O. During the time he was poHce commissioner, am I correct 
that he was then Hving in the city of New York itself ? 

A. Yes, he Hved at the corner of Sixty-second Street. 

O. Have you been at his home at Oyster Bay? 

A. Yes, I have gone there very often. 

O. Will you state, when he was living in New York City, and 
was president of the police commission, how far away did he reside 
from where your residence or office was ? 

A. I lived at Thirty-sixth Street and he lived at Sixty-second 
Street ; it is about a mile and a half or a mile and three-quarters. 

O. About how frequently per day or week or month did you see 
him ? 

A. Oh, I would see him five or six days in the week ; for weeks 
I would walk up to his house and walk down town with him and 
talk with him on the way down when he was bothered by things ; 
and then T would see him frequently at night and go around the 
city with him. 

O. Will you state when was the last time he was under your 
professional care? 

A. Wlien he was wounded in Milwaukee. T have not treated 
him personally since. 

O. When did your treatment begin, before or after he was 
removed to New York City? 

A. I went out there and attended him in Chicago, the day 
after he was shot ; then I took him on to New York and treated him 
as long as it was necessary, and since then he has been in good 
health, perfect health. 

O. At that time the bullet wound was where? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Mr. Pound: — I insist upon it: my object in asking that is to 
show the serious character of the wound and the treatment that 
was necessary at that time, and the recovery made and the occasion 
for it. 

Court : — I think you are entitled to that testimony. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. The bullet wound was where? 

A. It struck him on the right side of the big chest muscle about 
an inch below the right nipple, and went up and in four and a 
half inches, crossing over the sixth and fifth, and breaking the 
fourth rib. It now lies one inch in and one-half inch down from 
the nipple. 

47 



Q. Do 1 understand you that he has made a complete recovery 
as far as possible under the circumstances? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. As a professional man, with your acquaintance with Theo- 
dore Roosevelt, what do you attribute his recovery to? 

AIr. Andrews: — That is objected to as irrelevant and imma- 
terial. 

Court : — It would depend upon the answer. 

A. I attribute it to his splendid unpoisoned physique. 

j\Ir. Pound:— Q. The length of time that you have known Air. 
Roosevelt, in round numbers, is how many years? 

A. Twenty-two years. 

Q. During the time you have known him, describe with a little 
more particularity the frequency of your visits to him and in his 
household, socially or professionally. 

A. I have spent weeks at a time in the household, as a member 
of the household caring for his children or members of the family. 
I have been in and out of the household at all hours in the day or 
evening, at any time of day. During the time I have known him 
up to the present time I have seen him with very great frequency. 

Q. While he was governor of the state of New York did you 
see him with some frequency? 

A. Yes, I saw him frequently. 

Q. And where? 

A. In New York. 

Q. In New York City ? 

A. New York City, and at Oyster Bay. 

Q. Did you ever see him at the capitol at Albany? 

A. I never went to see him at the capitol at Albany. 

Q. When he was president of the United States did you have 
occasion to see him ? 

A. I frequently saw him, yes ; I would spend days at a time and 
weeks at a time caring for his children when they were ill. I came 
and went from the White House very frequently. 

Q. Have you eaten at his table? 

A. \^ery often. 

Q. I ask you, from your twenty-two years' experience, to de- 
scribe to this jury from your observation of Mr. Roosevelt, what 
indulgence you have observed in alcoholic or malt liquors? 

A. He is an exceedingly temperate man ; an unusually abstinent 
man. 

48 



Q. I will ask you, if he was a constant user to excess of alcoholic 
liquors when he was shot, would he have made the recovery he did ? 

A. No. 

Q. Will you kindly tell this jury, in your twenty-two years' ex- 
perience and your acquaintanceship with Theodore Roosevelt, as 
to whether you have observed any evidence of an alcoholic breath 
or anything of that kind upon the plaintiff in this case? 

A. No, I never have, in all the twenty-two years I have been 
with him. 

Q. In that trip you made in Dakota, where did you go from 
Medora in your hunt, how many miles did you cover? 

A. In that month we must have gone about sixty-five miles 
southwest, and then turned and went back ; I suppose in that circle 
we traveled about a hundred and fifty or a hundred and sixty miles. 

O. How did you live? 

A. We rode on horses, and camped wherever night overtook us. 
We had our food with us. 

Q. You lived outdoors? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you sleep with reference to Colonel Roosevelt? 

A. I slept on the ground alongside of him. 

Q. When you participated in the Colorado bear hunt, about how 
many miles square did you cover there? 

A. W^e went in about thirty miles, and back again about thirty 
miles, and around in that country. 

Q. You say altogether you were in there about six weeks? 

A. We were gone about six weeks. 

Q. Will you state what was the method of your livelihood, as 
to living and sleeping? 

A. Why, in the wolf hunt there was a line of tents ; the colonel 
had one, and I slept in one ; there were tents along in a line ; we 
would get up just at break of dawn and have our breakfast, and 
get on our horses and go out chasing wolves; we would meet the 
chuck-wagon at noon, take our lunch, and take fresh horses and 
ride all the afternoon, and at night we came back, took some sup- 
per and went to bed. 

Q. Can you proximate the number of miles you would cover 
during the day? 

A. About forty; we would go about twenty miles in half a 
day. 

49 



Q. On your trip to Louisiana, did you in the daytime live on 
horseback ? 

A. We practically did ; we walked off into the woods ; Colonel 
Roosevelt was fond of studying birds, and I was off for hours at 
a time with him in the swamps looking at birds. 

Q. And at night-time? 

A. We sat around the camp fire together nights, and when it 
was time to go to bed we would disperse, and went to our tents. 

Q. I ask you in reference to the Medora trip, what liquor was 
consumed by Mr. Roosevelt on that occasion? 

A. He didn't take any at all. 

Q. I ask you with reference to the Colorado trip what liquor 
was consumed by Mr. Roosevelt, if any at all? 

A. He didn't take any; he didn't take any, and I didn't take any. 
At Colorado he had a chill, from his Cuban fever, and I gave him 
a small teaspoonful of whiskey so as to hurry the sweating. 

Q. Did you at that time repeat it? 

A. No; that is the only whiskey I ever gave him. in my life; 
I didn't repeat it then. 

Q. During the Louisiana trip, what if any liquor did Mr. Roose- 
velt consume? 

A. None, excepting coming up to A'icksburg he gave a dinner to 
the rest of us on the train; there were about a dozen of us; and 
two bottles of champagne w^ere opened that w^ent around for the 
dozen. He gave us a dinner on the railroad, and he took a glass 
of champagne that night, and so did L 

O. That was the extent of it? 

A. That was the extent of it. 

O. Will you tell this jury, when you were with him on these 
three hunts, what was his condition all the time as to being under 
the influence of liquor or not? 

A. Why. he was absolutely emi:»ty of it, most of the time. 

Q. When you saw him in Chicago at the time of the catastrophe, 
what did you do as to precautionary measures, to treat him; did 
you make any analysis of any excrement or anything? 

A. The hospital examined his urine and found it normal. 

Mr. Andrews: — I don't think that is competent. 

Court: — That may be going too far. Strike out that answer. 
If this examination would tend to show the presence or absence of 
alcohol, it would be admissible. 

50 



Mr Pound: — It is on that ground. 

Court : — You may go on. 

Mr. Pound: — If the hospital examination was not made under 
the supervision of this witness, I don't think it is competent, my- 
self. 

Court: — If that is so, of course it would not be competent. 

Mr. Andrews : — I ask to have the answer excluded, as incom- 
petent, irrelevant and immaterial to this case. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Did you make this examination? 

A. It was made by an intern in the hospital ; j>ersonally, I did not 
make it. 

Court : — It will be stricken out. 

A. The attendant physician never makes them himself. 

AIr. Andrews: — I object to the statement as to what was done. 

Court : — Yes, the statement is entirely stricken out. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Did you yourself, after he became your pa- 
tient, make any examination? 

A. I went over him physically. 

Q. Will you state whether, from your examination of him, 
independent of your knowledge now from a medical standpoint, 
could you tell whether this man was a subject of alcohol poisoning 
in any degree ? 

A. Yes, I could. 

Q. That is what I am trying to get at. 

A. I examined his wound and examined his liver and his heart 
and his lungs. I was the one to whom they left the examination 
of his lungs and heart particularly, because that is what I do— 
and am particularly speaking on those diseases and those questions 
particularly, and I found his heart normal and vigorous, a good 
muscle tone in it; and if he had used alcohol, if there was alcoholic 
poisoning, the muscles of the heart would have lacked muscle tone. 
In chronic alcoholism there is a hardening condition of the liver, 
or sclerosis. I found a wound in the breast and found that the 
fourth rib had been broken ; I could tell from his face that it 
pained him ; but the discoloration around the wound went down 
rapidly; there was no nervousness that I could tell; he slept like a 
child, and I ordered no medications for him whatsoever ; he didn't 
need it. His wound was treated antiseptically, and he was cool 
and collected, representing the nervous system of a man who was 
absolutely a temperate, abstinent man. 

Q. If he had been a frequent consumer of liquors of any kind 

51 



that were intoxicating, would the wound have manifested the con- 
dition it did at that time, in your judgment? 

A. No ; it would not have healed as quickly, and his nervous 
system — he might have had delirium tremens ; alcoholic patients 
often do ; about five per cent, of them do. 

Q. Can you tell us the year when it was and the season, that you 
made these trips, for instance, starting with Dakota? 

A. That was in September. 

Q. Can you tell the number of years ago? 

A. September, 1893. 

Q. When was the Colorado trip? 

A. The Colorado trip, we left Washington the first day of 
April and got back the 15th of May. 

Q. In what year? 

A. 1905. 

Q. And the. Louisiana trip? 

A. In 1907; I think it was in the last days of September or the 
first days of October. 

Q. Now. Dr. Lambert, from your acquaintanceship with the 
plaintiff in this suit, your intimacy, your seeing him, your profes- 
sional acquaintanceship with him, can you state positively as to 
whether this man. of your own knowledge, is or is not a temperate 
man ? 

A. I know of my own knowledge that he is an absolutely tem- 
perate man. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION : 

Mr. Andrews: — Q. Doctor, you have a great personal interest 
and friendship for Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And you are interested in his success of course in this case ? 

A. Naturally. 

Q. And wanted from the start to be of any advantage that you 
could in the case ? 

A. I wouldn't be here unless I did. 

Q. The fact is. you began your assistance by giving — you 
made out a written statement of what you were going to testify to 
here, didn't you. and signed it? 

A. Yes ; you cross-examined me at the time. 

Q. No. I mean before that. 

A. Once before, yes. 

52 



I 
I 



Q. There was a meeting of a lot of gentlemen all collected up 
at the Outlook office? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And then you gave statements, which were taken in type- 
writing and signed up by the witnesses ? 
A. I only know of my own. 
Q. You signed yours? 
A. I did. 

Q. And afterwards you gave testimony about this matter in 
New York City? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And now you come this distance to testify a third time^ 

A. Yes. 

Q. Have you given all the drinking of alcoholic liquors that 
you know about — 

A. Each time I have seen him take a drink, you mean? 

Q. Yes. 

A. No. 

Q. You have seen him take drinks? 

A. I have, as any temperate man does. 

Q. Do you know that he keeps wine and drinks it on his own 
table ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Drinks it at nearly everv meal ? 
A. No. 
O. Haven't you said that? 

A. No; I said I have seen him drink it at lunch or dinner; I 
never said further than that. 

Q. You have been there at breakfast? 

A. Very often. 

O. Have you? 

A. Yes, I have spent the night there. 

O. So that he keeps and drinks wine at his own home at least 
for lunch and dinner, you say, frequently? 

A. Occasionally, yes. 

O. And champagne, too? 

A. No, that is very, very rare. 

O. You have seen him drink champagne, haven't you? 
A. At his own house? 
O. Well, anywhere? 

53 



A. Yes, I have testified that he did, coming up from Vicksburg. 

O. You have seen it at other places, haven't you? 

A. At some pubHc dinners. 

Q. Have you seen him at pubhc dinners drinking champagne 
repeatedly ? 

A. I have not repeatedly ; I have been at public dinners off and 
on, when he didn't drink it. 

Q. Have you ? 

A. Yes. 

O. You say you have been frequently at public dinners with 
him ? 

A. Oh, I suppose I have been to fifteen or twenty with him. 

O. You accompanied him on the three hunts you have spoken 
about ? 

A. Yes. 

O. And kept track and noticed what he drank? 

A. No more than I noticed any other things that I was not 
thinking of. 

Q. Did you watch the other gentlemen, what they drank? 

A. In my presence, yes. 

Q. You would not say there was no liquor along, would you? 

A. Oh, there was; I had liquors in my knapsack. 

Q. There was liquor in the camp? 

A. Oh, yes. 

O. Did you watch him? 

A. Not more than ordinarily. 

Q. Did you ordinarily watch him? 

A. I didn't ordinarily watch any one. 

Q. You had your room, and he had his at the hotel or 
wherever you stopped? 

A. When on trains we didn't stop at any hotels. 

O. In addition to the testimony you speak about, have you 
talked the matter over some, say since noon to-day? 

A. No. 

Q. Not any at all? 

A. No. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Doctor, what kind of game were you hunting 
in Colorado? 

Mr. Belden :— That is objected to as irrelevant and immaterial. 
Mr. Pound: — It is preliminary, simply. 

54 



Court: — He says it is preliminary. Take the answer. 

A. We were on a bear hunt in Colorado. 

Mr. Pound: — And the other places? 

A. At Oklahoma we hunted coyotes and wolves; on the first 
trip at Medora we hunted antelope, and mountain sheep, and shot 
some partridges and ducks. 

Q. Tell the jury what kind of a marksman Colonel Roosevelt 
was. 

Mr. Belden : — That is objected to as irrelevant and immaterial. 

Mr. Pound: — The object of this is. bearing upon the condition 
of the man's nerves. 

Court: — It is rather remote. 

Mr. Pound : — You are a pretty busy man, are you not ? 

A. Usually, yes. 

Q. At the time your testimony was taken in New York, you 
didn't know whether you could get away or not to attend the trial ? 

A. Yes. 

O. It was taken provisionally, so that if you could not get away 
it might be used ? 

A. Yes. 

Presley Rixey, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What is your first name? 

A. Presley. 

O. You reside where? 

A. Washington, D. C. 

Q. What is your business now, doctor? 

A. I am a farmer at present. 

Q. Have you ever held any position in connection with the 
United States Government? 

A. Yes ; I was a doctor of medicine, and I am a farmer now. 

O. When did you firsf become attached to the United States 
Government; when was it, as near as you can tell? 

A. In 1874 I passed an examination as assistant surgeon ; three 
years later for assistant surgeon general, and later on I was exam- 
ined for medical director; later on I was appointed Surgeon-Gen- 
eral, and reappointed Surgeon-General, and I retired a little over 
three years ago. ' 

Q. When were you retired? 

A. In February, 1910. 

55 



O. Doctor, where were you born ? 

A. In Culpeper, X'irginia. 

O. You may state what year you were born in ? 

A. I was born in 1852. 

O. There were some doings when you were about eight or ten 
years old around Culpeper, wasn't there? 

A. Yes, sir; the Civil War was on. 

Q. You remember the Civil War, do you? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What school, if any. did you graduate from? 

A. The University of \'irginia. 

Q. How long was that before you took your examination for 
service in the United States Navy? 

A. About eight months. 

Q. So that after you became a graduate, did you do any prac- 
ticing ? 

A. I took a special course in medicine in Philadelphia for eight 
months, and after that I took the examination. 

Q. And you have spent your life in the Navy? 

A. I have, forty years of it. 

Q. When you became Surgeon-General of the United States 
Navy, what was the fact as to whether among other duties of yours 
the care of the president was placed in your hands ? 

A. Prior to becoming Surgeon-General, about two years — 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that as not responsive. 

Mr. Pound: — I want to show that he was Surgeon-General 
before Mr. Roosevelt was president, and that a part of the duties 
he was detailed to look after was looking after the president, cover- 
ing Mr. McKinley's administration and following. 

Mr. Andrews: — I don't object to that. 

Court : — He may state the facts, but not go into detail. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Was that a part of your duties? 

A. Do you wish me to say how I became — 

Court : — We are not interested in that. 

A. Well, I had the position at the White House when Mr. 
Roosevelt came into office. 

Mr. Pound: — Had you been there before? 

A. For over two years. 

Q. And then, who was president? 

A. Mr. McKinley. 

56 



Q. Who was in charge of Mr. jMcKinley's treatment at the time 
he received his death wound? 

A. I was. 

O. You may tell the jury first, as explanatory — you say you 
were in charge of Mr. McKinely? 

A. Yes. We had, of course, eminent physicians and surgeons 
with us. 

Q. During the time that Mr. Roosevelt was president, and Mr. 
McKinley too, what was your course in reference to seeing the 
president? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that part of it referring to Mr. 
McKinley. 

Mr. Pound: — O. What was your course so far as :\Ir. Roose- 
velt was concerned, as to seeing the president? 

A. My duty called upon me the first thing in the morning to 
visit the White House. 

O. When did you first see the president, night or day ? 

A. My first duty usually was, after my breakfast, to visit the 
White House. 

Q. Did you do it? 

A. I did it. 

O. During the time Mr. Roosevelt was president of the United 
States — I don't care what your duty was — but what did you do 
as to seeing him ; how frequently did you see him each day ? 

A. As I say, I saw him the first thing in the morning; then I 
saw him nearly every day the last thing in the evening after he had 
done his work for the day ; and then I saw him frequently during 
the day, often spending the day and night there when professional 
services in the family required it. I was with Mr. Roosevelt on 
most of his trips through the country, in almost every state in the 
Union, and most large cities ; I have been with him and traveled with 
him in his apartment or close to him, with him on all his rides, his 
lunches, breakfasts, and dinners, and sat as near him as possible, 
and watched over him as carefully as I could and was as near to 
him as a man could well be to another. 

O. I ask you as to whether you gave as much attention to Mr. 
Roosevelt as you did to any of the other presidents that you 
attended ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 
Court: — The objection is sustained. 

57 



Mr. Pound: — O. Before j\Jr. Roosevelt was vice-president of 
the United States had you any acquaintance with him? 

A. I just knew him as Assistant Secretary. From that time I 
knew him until he became president, in a general way, just meeting 
him occasionally. 

O. When he was president and resided in the White House as 
we call it, your duties as Surgeon-General of the Navy would be 
where, in what department? 

A. In the Navy Department, in an office. 

O. All of the jurors may not have been in Washington, and I 
ask you where did you live, about how far away from him? 

A. About four squares from the White House, where I live now. 

Q. Will you tell the jury, whether in going to and fro from your 
home to the office in the Navy Department building, a convenient 
way was near the White House or not? 

A. The Wliite House was directly on my route. 

Q. So that without deflecting your course or losing any time, 
you might walk right by the White House, is that right? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Now, I ask you, from your observation of Mr. Roosevelt, at 
the dinners you have attended while he was president, or in any 
other capacity, and when you were off on hunts, I wish you would 
state as to whether you ever saw Mr. Roosevelt in the slightest 
degree under the influence of liquor, in your life? 

A. I never saw Mr. Roosevelt under the influence of liquor in 
my life. 

O. What do you say, according to your observation, as to 
whether or not he is a free drinker, or a man that is abstemious 
in his habits in regard to the use of liquor? 

A. He is about as moderate as a man could well be, and not be 
a teetotaler. 

Q. Did you ever attend any of these state dinners in Washing- 
ton under any other president besides Mr. Roosevelt? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that as incompetent, irrelevant and 
immaterial. 

Court : — An answer to that question would be harmless, it seems 
to me. Take the answer. 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Pound: — O. I ask you under what president? 

A. President McKinley. 

Q. Don't answer this question until counsel has a chance to 

58 



object. I ask you in what particular the state dinners varied, if 
at all, during the administration of Mr. Roosevelt from the admin- 
istration under President McKinley, in regard to liquor on the 
table? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as incompetent, irrelevant 
and immaterial. 

Court : — You may take the answer. 

A. There was no difference that I could see. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Did you know, from your observation, where 
these diplomats and other representatives of foreign nations were, 
whether liquors were always upon the president's table? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant, immaterial and 
incompetent. 

Mr. Pound : — Everybody knows that there was never a presi- 
dent, except President Hayes, who didn't observe — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that statement; I desire to except to 
the statement of counsel. 

Mr. Pound : — I withdraw it. I never was at a state dinner ; I 
never got up so high in the air. 

Court : — The Court has ruled that the plaintiff may show that 
the custom which he followed with respect to intoxicating liquors 
at the White House corresponded with the custom of his prede- 
cessors ; to that extent you may go, but not further. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Did you have any occasion, before the admin- 
istration of President McKinley, while you were connected with the 
Navy, to attend any dinner in the White House? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And under whose administration did you attend dinners be- 
sides Mr. McKinley's? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that, as incompetent, irrelevant and 
immaterial. 

A. Under what president, you mean ? 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Yes, sir. 

A. Under almost all of them, or all White House dinners. I 
had reached the rank where I was invited to them all. 

Q. I ask you under what president's administration you at- 
tended those dinners? 

A. I didn't attend any until Mr. McKinley's time ; I spent 
much of my time at sea before that. 

Q. I ask you to tell the jury, at the White House dinner where 
the president sits, and who sits at the head of the table? 

59 



Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to as incompetent, irrelevant 
and immaterial. 

A. The President of the United States always sits at the head 
of the table. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Will you kindly tell the jury about how far 
away from the head of the table you would be seated, under the 
administrations of both President McKinley and Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. At one of those dinners I would probably be seated at the 
foot, furthest away. 

Q. So you were in full view of one another then ? 

A. Yes, sir, in full view. 

O. Now, then, what do you say as to the indulgence of Mr. 
Roosevelt even on those occasions, at the state dinners in liquids 
of any kind, what did they consist of, from your observation? 

-A.. ^Ir. Roosevelt usually confined himself to one kind of wine, 
usually a white wine. 

Q. How many glasses would he drink, so far as you know? 

A. I couldn't say of course how many glasses he took, but 1 
never noticed any effect from his taking it. 

O. That is the question I was going to ask ; did you notice any 
effect from any liquors he ever took at any state dinner? 

A. No, sir, I did not. 

O. During all these years you have known ]\lr. Roosevelt, will 
you tell the jury as to whether you ever noticed in his breath any 
such thing as a chronic user of alcohol has with reference to breath ? 

A. None whatever. He has a remarkably sweet breath. 

O. Will you state whether or not, during the time he was presi- 
dent, he had any ailment that required your services? 

A. In answering that I shall have to say that in Mr. Roosevelt's 
case, seeing him the way I did, T was able to ward oft* and keep 
oft" serious trouble. One of my aims was in regard to his health, to 
keep down his flesh. To do that, with a man of his habits, a tree 
eater and a man who loves outdoor exercise, I had to resort to 
extraordinary means to keep him down, and that was the cause 
of my visit to him in the office, and my seeing that he had certain 
treatment which was necessary to keep down the flesh. 

Q. Did he ever on any hunting trips of his, have a touch of what 
was called in Michigan here fever and ague, or anvthing of that 
kind ? 

A. He had touches of it, not only on the hunting trips, but in 
Washington, and it was kept down by treatment. 

60 



O. You said his disposition was to take exercise. Was there 
any contrast in that with his predecessor? 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to as irrelevant. 

Court : — I will hear you. 

Mr. Pound :— It is simply preliminary, that is all. 

Court: — The objection will be sustained. 

Mr. Pound : — Note an exception, please. 

O. Will you state, independent of your knowledge as a physician, 
from your examination of the plaintiff in this case, is there any 
question in your mind as to whether he is an absolutely temperate 
man or not ? 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. I object to that as leading and 
incompetent. 

Court : — The question may be leading. You may reform the 
question and I will allow it. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Independently of your knowledge excepting 
as a physician, from your inspection and from your observation and 
your examination of him, what kind of a man, as to being temperate 
or otherwise, do you pronounce ]\Ir. Theodore Roosevelt to be? 

A. From my knowledge of Mr. Roosevelt and from my frequent 
examinations of the condition of his liver, and from chemical exami- 
nations of his urine and secretions, and the thorough overhauling 
I gave him during the seven and a half years, I am satisfied that he 
is one of the most temperate of men. 

O. You have referred to his liver. What effect has the con- 
stant use of alcoholic and malt liquors upon the liver in the human 
body? 

A. It causes an enlargement, and other trouble. 

Q. An enlargement of it? 
A. Yes ; cirrhosis of the liver, and a hardening, and some other 
troubles. 

Q. Independent of this fever that occasionally afflicts him, what 
do you say is the condition of Mr. Roosevelt's health at the present 
time? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt, I think, is in fairly good condition now, but 
not in the same condition as he was when he left the White House. 

O. He has not done as well since he got out of your care ? 

A. He has gained more flesh ; he has not had the treatment that 
I put him to, regularly : he has not carried it out. 

O. What was this treatment that you put him to? 

61 



Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as incompetent, irrelevant and 
immaterial. 

Mr. Pound: — O. What have you known of his endeavors to 
comply with your idea of his taking exercise, treatment in the way 
of physical exercise, just tell us? 

j\Ir. Andrews: — I object to that as incompetent, irrelevant and 
immaterial. 

Court: — I don't see the relevancy of that, Mr. Pound. 

]Mr. Pound : — Q. Do you know anything about any horseback 
riding being done by the plaintiff? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt rode horseback every day nearly, and some- 
times he rode very long distances ; he took a great deal of exercise. 

O. How much do you know of the utmost that he did in any 
one day? 

A. Well, on one occasion on the western trip — 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. Were you with him at the time you speak 
of? 

A. I was. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Go ahead. 

A. When on his western trip he made a ride of about twenty 
miles on horseback, going at a gallop all of the time, and made it in 
a short time ; and on another trip he started from the White House 
in the morning and rode to W^arrenton, about fifty miles, and back 
the same day. 

O. Could a man who was burned out with alcohol do that, in 
your judgment? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial, and outside of 
anything that is claimed in this case. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Could a man take that ride, or could he do 
it frequently? 

A. I would not say he could not, but there is not many men who 
could make it at any time under the circumstances he made it. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. Dr. Rixey, were you in the bear hunt in 
the south? 

A. I was — you mean down in Louisiana? 
A. Yes, sir. 
A. I was. 

62 



Q. Were you in the wolf hunt through Oklahoma? 

A. I was not. 

Q. Were you in the hunt in Montana? 

A. I was not. 

Q. Or the bear hunt in Colorado? 

A. No, I was not. I think Dr. Lambert was on those trips. 

Q. But you and Dr. Lambert were both on the trip to Louisiana? 

A. Yes. 

O. He was pretty well supplied, you think, with doctors? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Your solicitude for i\Ir. Roosevelt was, you have stated to 
the jury, because you were an official, and while he was president 
and in the White House? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You didn't go with him on his trip abroad? 

A. No. 

Q. You have not attended him on the trips about the country 
since that time? 

A. No, sir 

Q. So that is some five years ago? 

A. Yes, going on five years. 

O. You don't mean to tell this jury that a man could not ride 
fifty or seventy-five or even one hundred miles a day when he oc- 
casionally or not infrequently drank liquor, do you? 

A. I do not mean that a man who drinks liquor cannot ride one 
hundred miles a day or one hundred and fifty miles a day, but I 
mean to say there are not many men who can do it, and a man who 
drank habitually could not do it. 

Q. You refer to a man who drank right along steady, habitually? 

A. Yes ; he would have serious trouble. 

Q. Haven't you testified before in this case, you gave your 
testimony once before, didn't you? 

A. Yes ; you took my testimony. 

Q. You gave your testimony once before? 

A. Yes ; I think you were present at the time. 

Q. I was. Did you testify that a man might drink perhaps to 
excess, and a month after you could not know it by looking at him? 

Mr. Pound: — Wait a minute. I object to that. He will prob- 
ably testify to the same thing now. 

Court: — I see no objection to that question. 

Mr. Pound: — Note an exception. 

63 



Mr Andrews: — Q. Have you not testitied that a person might 
drink to excess, and a month afterwards you would not know it? 

A. I would not know it? 

Q. Yes. You do not mean to say that a man might not drink to 
excess on occasions, without your knowing it, on special occasions? 

A. Not if I was about him, anywhere near him, I would know it. 

Q. And you see him, say a month or two weeks afterwards? 

A. A man might get drunk and I not see him for a month after- 
wards, and I would not know it. 

Q. You would not know it if you did not see him for two 
weeks ? 

A. 1 might not know it two weeks afterwards. 

Q. And you might not know it if you didn't see him for a week 
afterwards ? 

A. That might be possible. 

Q. Mr. Roosevelt did drink wine, did he not? 

A. Certainly, he did. 

Q. He did drink champagne, did he not? 

A. Certainly, he did. with the greatest moderation. 

Q. Did you watch him when you were at the table, or were you 
talking to gentlemen ? 

A. I watched Mr. Roosevelt as close as a man could be watched. 
Of course I turned my eyes away from him occasionally, but my 
duties called upon me to observe Mr. Roosevelt and I looked out 
for him in every way possible. 

Q. 1 want to put this question to you: Did you testify before, 
"T did not watch him to see what he drank"? 

A. 1 say it now, again. I did not watch him, but T say I did 
notice to a certain extent, but 1 didn't watch him for that special 
thing. 

Q. You were surrounded by people to whom you were talking 
on those occasions ? 

A. Yes. of course. 

Q. You were not there at all as a Secret Service man or any- 
thing of that kind? 

A. I would not have been invited over there if I had not been 
in an official capacity, or been connected with him as a physician. 

Q. Did you not testify before that you were not there to watch 
the jiresident to see how much he drank? 

:\Ik. Poind:— 1 object to that; he has no right to ask him what 

64 



he testified to before unless he reads the testimony so that the 
witness may know. 

Court: — The objection is good, under our practice. The wit- 
ness is entitled to read his deposition. He is entitled to read the 
entire deposition, if he desires. 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. Will you say that you were there con- 
sciously watching the president to see how much he drank, or how 
little he drank ? 

A. I mean to say, Mr. Andrews, that I was there to watch over 
everything. 

Q. Will you answer the question direct? 

A. I will try it. 

Q. Were you there consciously watching the president to see 
how much or how little he drank? 

A. That I was there consciously watching the president — I will 
say yes to that ; I was not there solely for that purpose, but I was 
there for the purpose of looking out for him, and to see that every- 
thing was done as far as possible — 

Q. You are going further than I asked you. If you were watch- 
ing the president to see what he drank, please tell the jury why? 

A. I was not there especially to watch him as to what he drank 
any more than how much he ate. 



Mr. Pound: — Q. But in the performance of your duties you 
did keep an eye on him, did you? 

A. That was my duty. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as leading. 

Court : — It is leading. Strike out the question and answer. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. During the seven years of your attendance, 
with your eyes on Mr. Roosevelt, the plaintiff in this case, could 
he have gotten drunk repeatedly without your knowing it? 

A. He could not have gotten drunk during that time without 
my knowing it. 

Q. Now I call your attention to the testimony you gave, and 
particularly what I have marked there, and I ask you in that ex- 
amination did you not swear that you did watch Mr. Roosevelt as 
a part of your duty? 

A. I did watch him, but I say not alone as to what he drank; 
I make the same statement that I have just made Mr. Andrews, 
in which I stated that T was careful not only to watch how much he 
drank, but how much he ate, in order that T might properly per- 

65 



form my duties to him, to have him in the best condition possible 
to perform the great duties he had to perform. Mr. McKinley, 
being a man who was not in that condition — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that last statement. 

Mr. Pound: — I think that is competent. 

Court : — You may strike out that part of it. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. You so swore in your examination in Wash- 
ington, as you see? 

A. Yes. 

Q. At that time you knew, did you not, that your testimony 
was taken so that if you could not get here yourself, it might be 
read? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Has there been any time since you were apprized that you 
were desired as a witness, that you did not intend to come personally 
and attend this trial if you could ? 

A. I would have gone anywhere for Mr. Roosevelt. 

Q. Was there any time v>hen you prescribed any liquors for 
Mr. Roosevelt that he took, or did not take it? 

A. Yes, on a number of occasions. In the first place I remem- 
ber one in which after an accident occurred to him where a 
street car ran into his carriage, killing a Secret Service man and he 
was seriously injured about one of his legs. The leg, when he came 
back to Washington, was swollen, and threatening blood poisoning, 
and an operation had to be performed, and he would not take an 
anesthetic, and I used cocaine, in cutting down through the peri- 
osteum and cutting down to the bone and scraping the bone. The 
wound was quite severe, and the cocaine didn't deaden it entirely. 
and I got him to take whiskey on that occasion. 

Q. By the periosteum, you mean the covering of the bone? 

A. Yes. And then on another time when he took it was when 
fatigued and tired out after a strenuous day. getting home in the 
evening, on board ship and on board trains, especially, I gave him 
a milk punch. But often during the whole time I was with him, 
I don't think all the times together would amount to twenty, and 
I think he refused it oftener than he took it. On one occasion T 
remember of his refusing it after this ride I speak of to Warrenton. 
when he came back with ice on his clothes, and boots frozen ; there 
were four of us in the party, and three of us took whiskey from a 
flask we had, but Mr. Roosevelt refused. That is one time he 
refused. I tried to urge him to take some, but he would not. 

66 



O. What effect, if any, has the free indulgence of alcohol upon 
a person's nerves ? 

A. It makes them nervous. 

O. What do you say as to the condition of Mr. Roosevelt's 
nerves ? 

A. Excellent. A man cannot shoot a rifle as well as he can 
who has not got pretty good nerves. 



( At this point plaintiff's counsel read in evidence the depositions 
of John B. Murphy, and Arthur D. Bevan.) 

THE DEPOSITION OF JOHN B. MURPHY, 
a witness produced, sworn and examined pursuant to the notice 
hereto annexed, at the instance of the plaintiff in the above entitled 
cause, to be used as evidence in said cause. 

APPEARANCES : 

Mr. William R. Medaris, 

Appearing for Plaintiff. 
Mr. W. p. Belden, 

For Defendant. 
The said John B. Murphy, having been by me first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified and deposed as follows : 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

By Mr. Medaris: — Q. Doctor, you may state your name, age — 

A. John B. Murphy, fifty-five years of age, — 

O. Residence and profession ? 

A. Chicago, surgeon and physician. 

Q. How long have you been a physician and surgeon? 

A. Since 1879. 

O. And you may state from what college you have degrees? 

A. I have my medical from Rush Medical College of Chicago. 

O. And state, in a general way, doctor, what has been the extent 
of your experience as a teacher of surgery and medicine and 
practitioner? 

A. I suppose that is told by the positions, that is what we would 
rather estimate that by. 

O. Yes? 

67 



A. Well, I was Attending Surgeon at the County Hospital for 
twenty years, Attending Surgeon at the Alexian Brothers Hospital 
for ten years, Attending Surgeon at Mercy Hospital for nineteen 
years, Consulting Surgeon to the County Hospital for ten years, 
Consulting Surgeon to the Hospital for Crippled Children, Profes- 
sor of Surgery in the College of Physicians and Surgeons ; first, I 
was in the Northwestern Medical College, then in Rush Medical, 
and then back to Xorthwestern, where I am now ; I have been 
President of the American Medical Association; President of the 
Chicago Medical Association ; Vice-President of the International 
Congress, and a member of the International Congress in Moscow, 
Paris, Rome; am a life member of the Deutsche Gesellschaft fiir 
Chirurgie of Berlin, Germany, a member of the Society of Surgery 
of Paris ; I have an honorary degree from the University of Shef- 
field, England, and from the State University of Illinois. 

0. Do you know the plaintifi^ in this case, Colonel Theodore 
Roosevelt ? 

A. I do. 

O. You may state whether or not on or about the 15th day of 
October. 1912, you had occasion to see the plaintiff, Colonel Roose- 
velt — 

A. Yes, I saw him, I think the day was the 15th. It was the 
morning after he was shot; if you will admit that, I will say the 
15th. 

O. — and if so, when and where you saw him? 

A. I saw him in the car at the Xorthwestern track at the foot, 
I think it was, of Wells Street, near the Old Wells Street station. 

O. And where did he go or did you go from there? 

A. I saw him there, and from there I went with liim to the 
Mercy Hospital. 

O. Was an examination of the Colonel's condition made at the 
car ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

0. What was made? 

A. I took his i)ulse and listened to his heart and tested his lungs 
to see if he had a bleeding, and then I said he was all right for 
transportation. 

O. l7pon arrival at Mercy Hospital you may state in a general 
way what took place there, doctor? 

A. .After he was ])repared to ])ut in bed, we then prepared to 
make a surgical dressing of him, examined the location of the bullet, 

68 



estimated its probable course and what was injured in transit, we 
had the blood count made of him that morning and the urine 
analysis made, and we made a general physical examination. 

O. In what general condition of health did you find Colonel 
Roosevelt at that time? 

Mr. Belden : — That is objected to as irrelevant, immaterial and 
incompetent. 

A. I found him in excellent physical condition. 

Mr. Medaris : — Q. You may state whether or not from the 
examinations which you made of Colonel Roosevelt at that time 
there was any evidence of alcoholism about him? 

Mr. Belden : — Objected to as incompetent. 

The Witness: — A. No, there was not. 

Mr. Medaris: — Q. Did you find any alcoholic odor on his 
breath ? 

A. No. 

O. You may state, doctor, whether from your experience there 
is always present upon the breath of persons addicted to the frequent 
use of alcoholic stimulants, what is known in your profession as 
alcoholic odor? 

A. Alcoholic breath, if you will excuse me for amending the 
question, "alcoholic breath." There was none in his case. 

O. How long was Colonel Roosevelt under your care at Mercy 
Hospital at Chicago at that time? 

A. About two weeks. 

O. During that period of time was any alcoholic stimulant of any 
kind administered to the Colonel or taken by him' 

A. No. 

Q. Was there during any of this time any evidence of a condi- 
tion such as would result from the withdrawal of alcoholic stimu- 
lants from one who was addicted to its frequent use' 

Mr. Belden : — Objected to as incompetent and leading. 

A. There was none. H there had been we would have had 
to give him stimulants, you see. 

Mr. Medaris: — O. During this period of time, how frequently 
did you see the Colonel? 

A. Three or four times a day. 

O. Are you able to state from the condition in which you found 
him upon your several examinations, whether or not his condition 
was that of a temperate or intemperate man? 

69 



Mr. Belden : — Objected to as incompetent. 

The Witness: — A temperate. 

Mr. Medaris: — O. You may state in a general way, doctor, 
your reasons for reaching that conckision? 

A. First, the absence of alcohoHc odor on his breath ; second, the 
the absence of enlargement of his liver ; third, the absence of tremor 
of his hands in this period; fourth, the absence of bile in the urine 
as the case progressed, which is one of the common manifestations 
where alcohol has been used ; fifth, he had to have no stimulants of 
any kind during the progress of his case, and his nervous system 
was evenly balanced. 

Mr. Medaris: — That is all. 

THE DEPOSITION OF ARTHUR D. BE\\^N, 

a witness produced, sworn and examined pursuant to the notice 
hereto annexed, at the instance of the plaintiff in the above entitled 
cause, to be used as evidence in said cause. 

The said Arthur D. Benan, having been by me first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified and deposed as follows : — 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

By Mr. Medaris: — O. \y\\\ you state your name, age, resi- 
dence and profession? 

A. Dr. Arthur D. Revan, fifty-two years of age, Chicago, 
surgeon. 

Q. How long have you been a surgeon, doctor? 

A. Since 1883, thirty years. 

O. State, in a general way, the experience as a surgeon which 
you have had, including the position which you hold in that capacity? 

A. l->om 1883 until i888 I was in the I'nited States Marine 
Hospital Service ; from that time until the present I have been a 
member of the faculty at Rush Medical College in Chicago and am 
now the head of the department of surgery at Rush Medical Col- 
lege- — the University of Chicago, and am the head of the surgical 
department of the Presbyterian Plospital in Chicago. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff'. Colonel Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. Yes. 

Q. State whether or not you saw the Colonel on or about the 
morning of October 15th, 1912? 

70 



A. T saw him October 15th early in the morning, in consnUa- 
tion with Doctor John B. Murphy and Dr. Terrell. 

Q. Where did you see him? 

A. At the Mercy Hospital in Chicago. 

Q. Did you make an examination of the Colonel's condition at 
that time? 

A. Yes. 

O. You may state in what general condition of health you found 
the Colonel to be in ? 

A. On examination we found that he was in very good general 
condition. He had been shot. He was in very good general condi- 
tion considering the fact that he had been shot the night before, 
and had a bullet wound, which traveled through the chest wall for 
several inches, lodging deeply between two ribs on the right side. 
The bullet could not be felt, but the location of the bullet 
was accurately determined by the use of the X-ray. The wound of 
entrance was a ragged blackened hole, about as large as my index 
finger. This had been disinfected and dressed with an antiseptic 
dressing. 

Q. In addition to the examination which you made of the wound, 
did you make any specific examination of the colonel ? 

A. While he was under the charge of Dr. Murphy and myself, 
we made a thorough general examination and had the opportunity 
of studying his general condition fully. 

Q. At any time during your treatment of Colonel Roosevelt, 
did you notice about him such a breath as is known among surgeons 
as "alcoholic breath"? 

A. No. 

O. Did you have occasion to note it, if there had been such a 
breath ? 

A. Yes. While he was under our charge he was not given any 
stimulant of any kind, any drinks or medicines containing alcohol 
or narcotics. 

O. Was the condition of his nerves under the circumstances 
which you have detailed such a§ would result from the withdrawal 
of alcoholic or malt stimulants from a person addicted to their 
frequent use? 

A. No, on the contrary, our thorough physical examination 
showed that the colonel was in magnificent physical condition, 
and in especially good shape to resist the effects of the gunshot 
wound, so much so that this was marked, and in a bulletin which 

71 



the medical consultants issued, we made the statement that he was 
in excellent physical condition, and that was due to his habitual 
abstemiousness from tobacco and liquor. It was perfectly clear to 
us as medical men. from the colonel's physical condition, that the 
colonel must have taken special care of his body, both from the 
standpoint of exercise and never having abused himself with liquor 
and tobacco. In tiie other hand, if the colonel had been a drinking 
man, after the receipt of his gun shot wound, we, the medical at- 
tendants, could have easily recognized that fact during the time we 
had him under observation. 

O. From the special examination wdiich you made of the 
coloners condition, will you state his condition which leads you to 
the conclusion that he was a man of abstemious habits? 

A. In answer to that I should say that after receipt of the gun 
shot wound, Colonel Roosevelt remained in an unusually normal 
condition as far as his heart and his nervous system were concerned. 
He had more or less irritation in breathing, and absolutely no 
nervousness or excitement, he slept like a child, his nervous system 
was perfectly placid and under complete control, and the entire 
picture was entirely and absolutely inconsistent with that of a 
man who used liquor and was suffering from a gun shot wound of 
the character received by the colonel. I have taken care of a large 
number of gun shot wounds, some in men who drank, others who 
had been temperate, and have had the opportunity of studying both 
groups of cases very carefully. T know from this experience that 
Colonel Roosevelt's condition during the period while he was at the 
Mercy Hospital under our care and suffering from the gun shot 
w^ound, was such as to be absolutely inconsistent with his being a 
drinking man or a man wdio had ever abused himself with liquor. 



GiL.soN Gardner, sworn on the part of the plaintiff', testified 
as follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Your name i^ dilson Gardner? 
A. Gilson Gardner. 
Q. Where do you live? 
A. Washington, D. C. 
O. How old a gentleman are you? 
A. Forty-four. 

O. How long have you lived in Washington? 

72 



A. I have lived there continuously for thirteen years, and some 
little time before that. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. Chicago. 

Q. What is your business ? 

A. Newspaper correspondent. 

O. What position do you occupy or what are you employed at 
at the present time in Washington? 

A. I am the Washington correspondent in charge of the Wash- 
ington Bureau of the Newspaper Enterprise Association. 

O. How long have you held that position? 

A. I have been in that position for about eight years. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I do, sir. 

Q. Mr. Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. I do, sir. 

O. Where was he when you first became acquainted with him? 

A. Towards the beginning of his administration ; he was presi- 
dent for seven years, and I met him first in 1902, I think it was, 
and knew him during his seven years in Washington, and had seen 
considerable of him after that time. 

O. In pursuance of your duties, what is the fact as to whether 
you came in contact with Mr. Roosevelt frequently or infrequently, 
while he was in Washington, while he was president, I mean ? 

A. I saw him quite frequently in pursuance of my duties as a 
newspaper correspondent. 

O. Was there any regular time of day? 

A. I would not say there was no regular time of day, but there 
was a particular time when he was likely to be more available for 
that purpose than other times, and I suppose on an average of three 
times a week I used to see him, generally between the hours of 
twelve and one, what was popularly known as the "shaving hour." 

O. How long did that continue ? 

A. That continued until he went out of office. 

O. Did you see Mr. Roosevelt after he went out of office? 

A. Yes, sir, I saw him when he left Washington, and after that 
he went to Africa, and I again saw him ; I was ordered by the 
Newspaper Enterprise Association to go to Africa and meet him 
as soon as he was available for that purpose. 

O. Whereabouts did you meet him? 

73 



A. I met him about two days' journey south of Khartum, on the 
White Nile. 

Q. Where did you meet him, on water or on land? 

A. Mr. O'Laughlin, the Chicago Tribune man, and myself char- 
tered a steamer and went up the White Nile two and a half days' 
journey, and met his boat coming down the Nile. 

Q. From the time of your meeting Mr. Roosevelt during the 
time he was in Europe, what portion of the time were you in his 
company or near to him? 

A. T was in attendance upon him continuously from the time 
that we met on the Nile until we arrived in New York, which was 
about three months later. 

Q. Will you tell the jury where you went? 

A. Well, w^e came down in the steamer to Khartum, where we 
stopped for a few days, and then we went from Khartum to Cairo, 
and from Cairo to Alexandria, and from Alexandria to Naples, 
from Naples to (icnoa, from Cenoa to Porto Maurizio, from Porto 
Maurizio to X'enice, and I think from X'enice to Paris, and from 
Paris to Berlin, and from P)erlin to The Hague, and from The 
Hague to Copenhagen, and from Copenhagen to Christiania — no, we 
went from Herlin across the channel to London where we were for 
about twenty-five days, and from London to New York. 

O. That was the itinerary while you were attached to him ' 

A. Yes, sir, approximately. 

O. Was it your business at that time, and were you detailed, or 
did you keep the people in touch with him? 

A. 1 was at that time appointed as correspondent of the L'nited 
Press, in addition to my Newspaper Enterprise Association work, 
and was sending daily cable service to the United States, and it was 
necessary in sending this cable service to keep the colonel under my 
eye as much as was humanly possible. 

O. Did you so do ? 

A. I did, sir. 

Q. During the time that you were in Italy and France and 
Germany and Denmark and Norway and England, were there any 
occasions when Mr. Roosevelt attended any banquets? 

A. Yes, sir, he attended very many public banquets on that trip. 
It was practically two months in luu-ope of almost solid banqueting. 

O. Were you present at any or all or a part of those banquets 
which he attended? 

74 



A. I was present at all of what might be called the public ban- 
quets, when he wasn't entertained at a priate house, or a palace. 

Q. After he returned to Xew York, what connection did you 
have with him, if any? 

A. After he returned to Xew York I used to see him quite fre- 
quently at his home in Oyster Bay, making trips there from Wash- 
ington for that purpose. After that, during the early stages of the 
first trip west, when he went to Kansas, to Osawatomie, I took that 
trip with him, and have taken a number of trips on the train when 
he took political trips. 

O. This trip that you designate as the Osawatomie trip, was 
the trip when he went to Kansas? 

A. Yes, when he went to Kansas and delivered a speech, usually 
known as the Osawatomie speech. 

Q. Where was it that you joined Mr. Roosevelt in that trip, 
what point? 

A. I think I went to New York and joined the train there. 

Q. New York City? 

A. That is usually my practice. 

Q. Did you go further west upon that trip than the state of 
Kansas ? 

A. I went as far west as the trip went ; I don't recall now. 

Q. Did it go west of Kansas, or did it go into Colorado? 

A. I don't think we went to Colorado at that time. 

Q. Where did you leave Mr. Roosevelt on the return trip? 

A. I think I took him back to New York. 

Q. About how long a time did that cover? 

A. As I recall it, that trip was about twelve days ; I am not sure 
about the time. 

Q. I want only your best recollection ; upon that trip what can 
you say as to whether on any of those days you were ever absent 
for an entire day from the car that Colonel Roosevelt occupied? 

A. On this western trip there were a great many correspondents 
and they occupied a car next to Colonel Roosevelt's car. 

O. Occupying the car next to the colonel's car, would you go 
in and out, did you have free access to the colonel's car? 

A. I went in and saw him at any time of day or night. 

Q. Will you state to this jury, upon that tri]) from the beginning 
of it to the end, what, if any, liquor of any kind, spirituous or malt, 
Mr. Roosevelt consumed in your presence? 

75 



A. I don't tliink he consumed any, according to my present 
recollection. 

O. Beginning in 1902, or 1901, when it was first your duty to sec 
him in Washington, and from the time you met him near Khartum 
until you left him in New "iork, and all the other times, what do 
you sav to this jury as to whether or not he is a drunkard, or a 
prohibitionist, or what kind of a consumer of liquor he is, if at all? 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to as incompetent, and outside 
of the scope of the pleadings in this case. 

Court : — Take the answer. 

A. Colonel Roosevelt is not a total abstainer from liquor. I have 
seen him take at public banquets not to exceed a glass of champagne. 
I have never seen him in any way affected by liquor at all ; and he 
is absolutely a man of abstemiousness and sobriety. I never know 
of a time in all my experience that I have ever seen him even 
slightly under the influence of liquor. 

]v1r. Pound: — Q. You have seen men under the influence of 
liquor, have you ? 

A. I have, sir. 

Q. You know that it takes some time to recover from it? 

A. It does. 

0. 1 ask you this question, from your knowledge, and your 
duties to see Mr. Roosevelt during his incumbency of the presidency, 
and since that time wherever he was, what can you say as to whether 
he could be in the habit of getting drunk and you not know it? 

A. It would have been an impossible thing that he could be 
drunk or at any time noticeably under the influence of liquor with- 
out my having known it or without every correspondent in the corps 
knowing it : I would say, if it is proper to say so, T have never known 
of any member of the newspaper corps, of whom there were about 
a hundred and twenty-five, who seriously entertained the proposition 
that Mr. Roosevelt was a drinking man. 

Q. I ask you as to whether, from your observation, you can 
say that Mr. Roosevelt uses any narcotics, licpior, tobacco, drugs or 
anything of that kind to excess? 

A. I know he does not use tobacco. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 
Mr. Andkkws: — Q. You live in Washington, do you? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. How long have you -lived there? 

76 



A. I left there to come here about two days ago. 
Q. During the time when Colonel Roosevelt was the president, 
you used to go up there between twelve and one, as I understand? 
A. Yes. 

Q. About three times a week? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you would stay about how long? 
A. Sometimes three-quarters of an hour, or an hour. 
O. There were others present usually at that time? 
A. Sometimes there would be, and sometimes I would be alone, 
except the barber. 

Q. That would be the way of it, one or two others present? 
A. Sometimes there would be nobody but the man shaving him. 
Q. As a usual thing, there were others? 
A. Very frequently there were others. 
0. And that was in the middle of the day ? 
A. That was between twelve and one. 

O. That covered the period I think you said, until he went to 
Africa? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Were you present at the Joe Cannon dinner? 
A. Yes, sir. 

•Q. At the Arlington Hotel? 
A. No, sir, the Willard Hotel. 
Q. At the Willard Hotel? 
A. Yes. 

O. Was there a dinner at the Arlington Hotel? 
A. A reception there. 
O. Were you there at that time? 

A. No, sir; that was a different affair, that you are speaking 
about. 

O. You know nothing about that? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. Will you say to the jury that the matter of that reception 
was not generally talked about, and the matter as to Mr. Roosevelt 
drinking champagne there, was not talked about in the city of 
Washington ? 

A. T say most emphatically, sir. yes, sir. 
O. You were not there yourself? 
A. At that reception, no. 

77 



O. The reception you did attend was at the VVillard Hotel ? 

A. The dinner which Mr. Cannon gave to the Gridiron Club 
was at the W'illard. 

Q. Did they have champagne there? 

A. They did, yes. 

O. Were there various tables all through the room? 

A. There were, yes. 

Q. That is, forty or fifty tables? 

A. A'es, sir. 

O. You sat at one of them? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Nearly everybody drank champagne, didn't they? 

A. I think nearly everybody. 

O. You did, did you? 

A. I did, yes. 

O. Was there other wine there? 

A. I think there was. 

O. Wine flowed pretty freely at that time, didn't it? 

A. It did. 

Q. Waiters with battles filling up the glasses when people 
wanted it? 

A. There were. 

Q. Filled up your glass, too? 

A. Not particularly, because I am not much of a drinker. 

O. You are not very much of a drinker? 

A. No. 

O. They filled it up as much as you wanted it? 

A. 1 never wanted very much. 

O. In that case they didn't fill yours up very many times? 

A. Not very many times, no. 

Q. Was there some brandy and whiskey there? 

A. If there was whiskey or brandy. I don't recall it. It is not 
usual on those occasions to have brandy or whiskey. 

O. Brandy is most generally used, isn't it. at such a place? 

A. Sometimes it comes in with cofi^ec. l)ul I don't recall it. 

Q. I think they call it liqueur, don't they? 

A. Brandy is not a liqueur. 

Q. Were you watching the other people around there witli you 
to see what they drank? 

A. I never ])articularly watched to see what other people drank. 

78 



Q. So you don't know what other people drank that night, do 
you? 

A. When the president of the United States is there, I usually 
keep him under my eye. 

O. Watch him, did you? 

A. He was there, and I naturally saw him, naturally observed 
him. 

Q. Did you see him, see how many times he drank? 

A. He is the object of observation with newspaper men, and I 
saw him that evening all the time ; it becomes almost second nature 
to keep him under one's eye. 

Q. I understand you were not there to watch to see how much 
the president drank? 

A. I saw what the president did on that evening. 

Q. I suppose; but how many times he was served, or just what, 
would you be willing to swear under oath here? 

A. I would be willing to swear under oath as to what his con- 
dition was. 

O. I didn't ask that. 

A. And what he drank. 

Q. You went clear across the ocean to meet Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. By the way, did you ever receive any appointment of any 
kind at his hand? 

A. Never. 

O. Have you had what you deemed personal favors? 

A. I have had no favors at the hand of Colonel Roosevelt of any 
kind or description, no, sir. 

O. He took you along with him, that is, you accompanied him 
almost all over Europe? 

A. I went at the expense of our office. 

Q. Where did you start from on that trip that you speak of on 
the Nile? 

A. To the Nile? 

O. Yes. 

A. I started from Washington. 

O. No, when you got to Africa, after you met Colonel Roose- 
velt ? 

A. We met him at the Nile about two days from Khartum south, 
on the White Nile. 

Q. Mr. O'Laughlin and you were together? 

79 



■ A. Yes, as the rcpresenlative of the New York World. 

Q. Yoti started across the ^Mediterranean, you went down the 
Nile to the Mediterranean? 

A. W'e came down the Nile to Khartum: Khartum is about tive 
days' journey from Cairo by rail and boat; we went from Khartum 
to Cairo: we went down through Africa, and from Cairo to Alex- 
andria, where you get your ship, and from Alexandria to Naples. 

Q. Well, did you go to Rome? 

A'. Yes, sir ; I failed to name Rome ; I was speaking from recol- 
lection offhand, of the trip. This is three or four years behind me 



now. 



Q. You went to see the various distinguished people of Europe? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And were entertained by them? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt was, yes. 

Q. And you with him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You would not naturally expect him to get intoxicated dur- 
ing those times, on every trip, more than — 

Mr. Pound: — I object to that, what he expected; that is a mat- 
ter of indift'erence here. The fact, as counsel says, is the con- 
trolling thing. 

Coi_^i.-j- :_The objection appears to me to be good, i\lr. Andrews. 

]^1r. Andrews: — O. At all events, I think you have said that 
Mr. Roosevelt was careful of what he ate and drank on that trip; 
that is, he didn't drink or eat too much? 

A. T have not mentioned anything about his eating; I assume 
he didn't eat too much; he didn't certainly drink too much. 

Q. Well, he drank champagne when they had banquets, didn't 
he?~ 

A. He follows the usual practice — 

O. The question is. did he drink champagne? 

A. He sipped his champagne. 

O. And at every bancpiet that he went to. that you saw. he 
drank some champagne, did he not? 

A. T think probably he did. 

Q. Did he drink any other wines? 

A. I think not. 

O. Did you notice to see? 

A. I noticed him always. 

O. Were you at the same table with him? 

80 



A. Not at the same table always, no. 

Q. Were you where you think you were in position to know 
what he drank? 

A. I always had him in view ; that is why I Avas there. 

O. You kept yourself where you could see him all the time? 

A. That is why I was there ; I went to keep him in view all the 
time. 

Q. To keep him in your eye? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Andrews: — I think that is all. 



Mr. Pound: — O. Just a question or two. Counsel asked you 
in reference to this entertainment at the Willard, and as I under- 
stood you. you said that you knew how much Colonel Roosevelt 
drank at that entertainment. About how much was it, sir? 

A. About one glass of champagne. 

O. Did you see him at the end of the banquet? 

A. 1 saw him get up and go out. 

Q. What is your best recollection as to his condition? 

A. I swear that his condition was absolutely sober and normal. 

O. Now, I ask you, from your intercourse with the plaintiff in 
this suit and during your conversation, and the conversation that 
you heard him with others indulge in. what do you say of his habit 
of speech, as to whether it is cleanly or otherwise? 

A. I never knew a man who was more cleanly in his speech, 
who was less profane, or who was absolutely clean, than he is in 
his speech. 

O. At these banquets that Mr. Roosevelt was invited to and 
participated in, in which you say he sipped the champagne, how 
much was the extent of his consumption of champagne at any of 
them ? 

A. T never saw him drink more than a single glass of champagne 
on those occasions. 

O. You say it was your business to keep him in your sight. 
Would you see him at the time he departed from these respective 
banquets ? 

A. I went when he went. 

O. Will you tell the jury in what condition he was when he 
went, as to sobriety? 

A. He was absolutely sober always. 

( Adjournment.) 

81 



Wednesday Morning, iMay 28, 1913. 

John Callan O'Laughlin, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, 
testified as follows : — 

j\Ir. Pound: — Q. What is your full name? 
A. John Callan O'Laughlin. 
O. How old a gentleman are you? 
A. Forty. 

O. \\'ere were you born? 
A. Washington, D. C. 

O. Where have you lived, in your life as a whole, outside of 
Washington, D. C, if at all? 

A. Just a couple of years in Europe. 
O. You attended school in Washington? 
A. Yes. 

O. What school beyond the public schools did you attend? 
A. None. 

O. At what age did you first begin to work? 
A. When I was sixteen. 

O. What did you direct your attention to first ? 
A. Learning shorthand. 

O. After that had been accomplished, what did you then do? 
A. I got a job as secretary to a man who was at the head of — 
O. That is sufficient ; did you shortly thereafter turn your atten- 
tion to what is known as newspaper work? 
A. 1 did. 

O. About how old were you when you started that? 
A. Eighteen. 

0. What has been your business, or what line of work per- 
taining to newspaper business has occupied your attention from the 
time you were eighteen years of age until the present? 

A. I have been a reporter and magazine writer and Washington 
correspondent. 

Q. You are now what? 

A. Washington correspondent of the Chicago Tribune. 
Q. I ask you, do you know the plaintiff" in this suit? 
A. I do. 

O. W'hen did you first become acquainted with him? 
A. When he was Civil Service commissioner in Washington, in 
1893. 

82 



O. How did you come to become acquainted with him in the 
way of business? 

A. By reason of my reportial duties. 

O. You may state how long, at that time, did your acquaintance- 
ship continue ? 

A. Well, it was my duty to cover the Civil Service Commission, 
and on occasion I would call upon Mr. Roosevelt either at his 
offices or at his home to ask him some questions which arose in con- 
nection with my work. 

O. When his term, or connection W'ith the Civil Service Com- 
mission terminated, where did he go then ? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt went to New York as president of the police 
commission, and I did not keep in touch with him. 

Q. During that time you were not in touch with him ? 

A. I was not in touch with him. 

O. After he ceased to be president of the police commission, 
when was it you next saw him and did come in touch with him? 

A. When he became Assistant Secretary of the Navy in 1897. 

O. In whose administration was that? 

A. That was during the administration of President McKinley. 

O. In round numbers, about how long was he Assistant Secre- 
tary of the Navy? 
. A. Why, until April, 1898, when he went to Cuba. 

O. What is the fact, by reason of your duties, and a part of the 
work assigned to you to cover the naval department? 

A. I was at the time with the New York Herald and it was my 
duty to cover the state, war, and navy departments, and it was a 
time just preceding, or at the beginning of the Spanish- American 
war, and, of course, the state and war and navy departments and 
all the departments of the government were engaged in preparation 
for war, and naturally T was there all the time ; I would go down 
about ten o'clock in the morning and stay until six in the evening: 
and frequently I would receive telegrams asking me to wire about 
some developments, and then T would have to go up to see the 
Secretary or the Assistant Secretary, who was Mr. Roosevelt. May 
I add, that I frequently saw Mr. Roosevelt: I always saw him at 
least twice a day. and sometimes five or six or seven times a day 
and night. 

O. About how long would your interviews last — of course it de- 
pended on the subject matter in hand, but was it five minutes or five 
hours ? 

83 



A. Sometimes five minutes, and sometimes three-quarters of an 
hour. For instance, the room set aside by the Xavy Deparinicnt 
for the use of correspondents was just outside of the door of the 
Assistant Secretary; so that 1 would see Mr. Roosevelt going out 
to luncheon, say, and 1 would go and ask him a question that would 
take a second or two; and I would see him coming back, and then 
I might go in his office and talk witli him. 

O. How close would you describe yourself as coming in con- 
tact with him during the time Mr. Roosevelt was connected with 
the Xavy Department? 

A. I was so close to Mr. Roosevelt that when he was forming 
his Rough Riders regiment I applied to him for permission, to go 
with it, and he told me that the time had not arrived, because I had 
a wife and didn't have any money to support her in my absence ; 
that he had a wife, but had the money so that he could leave some 
money, and that he could afford to go, while T could not. and the 
time had not arrived for a call for the men. and T ouglu to stay 
at home. 

O. From the Xavy Department, state where !\[r. Roosevelt 
went ? 

A. He went to the front at Santiago. 

O. During the time he was awav in Cuba, did vou personall}' see 
very much of him? 

A. I did not see him while he was in Cuba. 

O. Upon his return — I guess it will not be questioned that a 
short time after his return and being mustered out he was elected 
governor ? 

A. I only saw him occasionally as governor of Xew York. 

O. Upon his election to the vice-presidency and return to Wash- 
ington and what time he was there, did you see him then ? 

A. y\y relations with Mr. Roosevelt from the time he was As- 
sistant Secretary of the Xavy had become all the greater, or caused 
me — 

Mr. Ax!>R!:\\s ; — T object to this answer, as not being respon- 
sive. 

A. 1 saw him u])on his return to Washington. 

Mr. P(r.\i): — (J. Xow, lie would take office, of course, when, 
as vice-president? 

A. On March 4, 1901. 

84 



O. Do you recall when President !\IcKinley was shot? 

A. I do. 

O. Tell us the date. 

Mr. Andrews: — I don"t think that is material or relevant. 

Court :— He is asking to fix the dates when this witness was 
tamiliar with the plaintifif. You may answer the question. 

A. I recall when he was shot. 

Court: — He asks you for the date. 

A. It was in September, 1901. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What I want to know is, did ^Ir. Roosevelt, 
as vice-president, remove his family and live in Washington, or not? 

A. Oh, well, he was there only such a short time — 

O. I know, but — 

A. ^Ir. Roosevelt made arrangements to come to Washington, 
but I don't remember precisely — 

O. He had come to Washington? 

A. He had come to Washington for the inauguration, but had 
not come to live. 

O. Was there a special session of the Senate or anything of 
that kind that called him to Washington while he was vice-president? 

A. There was a special session of the Senate. 

O. Was he in attendance then ? 

A. He was. 

O. And during the special session of the Senate, would you see 
the president? 

A. Oh, yes ; I called immediately upon him. by reason of my 
relations with him. 

Q. By reason of the death that removed the president, when the 
plaintiff became president by operation of law, did he then remove 
at once to Washington ? 

A. He came at once to Washington. 

O. From that time during the seven and a half years of his 
administration as national executive, will you state to the jury how 
frequently you saw him? 

A. I stayed in Washington a year and a half and then I went 
to Europe to do newspaper work in Europe, and I was over there 
nearly two years, and then came back to Washington, and I saw 
Colonel Roosevelt morning, noon and night, usually during his 
shaving hour; sometimes at nine o'clock, sometimes ten o'clock, 
and sometimes at five o'clock ; and then whenever anything im- 
j)ortant arose, whv I would telephone to Mr. Loeb, who was the 

85 



secretary, and llirough liim make arrangements to go to the White 
House to see him after dinner, and I would see him frequently at 
nine o'clock, or if he had some men coming over, I wouldn't see him 
until eleven o'clock, and I have seen him at half past eleven. 

Q. You refer to the shaving hour; what do you mean by that? 

A. Oh, about half past twelve Mr. Roosevelt would finish receiv- 
ing callers and he would go then into the room, in case he had not 
shaved at the White House, and usually he did not shave himself 
over there ; he was so busy he had to come — 

Mr. Andrews : — I think you can answer the question directly. 

Court: — O. What do you mean by the shaving hour? 

A. By the shaving hour, I mean the time which was occupied in 
the room between the president's room and the secretary's room 
in the White House in which the colonel was shaved, or practically 
half an hour, about half past twelve, when he did not shave over 
at the White House himself. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. What time, if you know, was luncheon served 
at the White House during his administration? 

A. At one-thirty in the afternoon. 

Q. What was the fact as to the finishing of the shaving approxi- 
mating pretty nearly the time of the luncheon? 

A. It was pretty close — I made a mistake, it was one o'clock 
instead of twelve-thirty that he began to shave. 

O. After the plaintifif's term of office as president expired, how 
long did he remain in Washington, approximately? 

A. After what? 

O. After the 4th of March, when his term expired? 

A. Why, he left Washington — I went to the Union Station 
with him from the capitol, and he left immediately. 

O. Did you see him again until he took his trip? 

A. I went to Xew York and on the boat which took him to 
Europe. 

Q. Did you accompany iiim on that voyage? 

A. No, I did not. 

Q. You separated just before the commencement of the voyage? 

A. We did. 

Q. When did you next see Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I was ordered by my paper to go down to join him in Africa. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court: — Strike out the statement why he went, that he was 
ordered by the paper. Strike that out. 

86 



Mr. Pound: — O. When did you next meet him? 

A. Below Khartum about four hundred and fifty miles, about 
twenty-four hundred miles in Africa. 

Q. How did you meet him, in what capacity? 

A. As a newspaper correspondent, representing the Chicago 
Tribune. 

Q. In the way of business? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How long had he then been in Africa? 

A. About eleven months. 

Q. The last time you had seen him would be about how many 
days befors the ship started on its voyage, if you know ? 

A. I saw him in New York on the day he left. 

Q. Then you hadn't seen him from the time he left until the 
time you saw him in Africa? 

A. No. 

Q. And that was about how many hundred miles from the 
Mediterranean Sea? 

A. About twenty-two hundred miles. 

O. You looked him over when you bid him good-bye, I suppose, 
didn't you? 

A. I did. 

Q. Did you do the same thing when you saw him again? 

A. I did. 

Q. After his return, or your meeting him in Khartum or near 
Khartum, go ahead and tell the jury what, if anything, you did 
in the line of your duties as to accompanying Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I not only accompanied Colonel Roosevelt as Washington 
correspondent of the Chicago Tribune, but I also acted as his secre- 
tary during the time he went through the Soudan, and on the 
journey up to Paris. 

Q. Did you sever your connections in Paris? 

A. I was ordered home. 

Q. Describe to the jury, point by point, where you went, that is, 
where you first stopped as you came down from Khartum? 

A. Well, the first place I saw the colonel was above a little place 
called Renk. From that point we came down to Khartum where 
Mrs. Roosevelt and Mr. Roosevelt joined the party. From Khartum 
we went through the Soudan to Lower Egypt, and from Lower 
Egypt up to Karnak. 

Q. How did you go trough the Soudan, by water or rail ? 

87 



A. We went partly by rail, and then we took a boat which was 
assigned to the colonel by the Egyptian Government, and I was 
with the colonel and his family on that boat; and we went up the 
river to a place called Shelal, where we again took the train, and 
went by train to Karnak, and from Karnak to Cairo, from Cairo 
to Alexandria, and from Alexandria to Naples, Italy. 

O. During the time, from the time you were in Khartum down 
to Alexandria, what did you see of the colonel? 

A. Well, 1 was with him every minute, excepting when he was 
asleep. 

O. How was it at meal-times? 

A. We ate togeter. 

Q. From Alexandria, you went where? 

A. From Alexandria we went to Naples. 

O. And in Naples, was there anything done in the way of a 
public reception ? 

A. Well, I went immediately to Rome by myself. 

Q. Going back, in Cairo, or these other places, was there any- 
thing in the nature of a public reception? 

A. Oh, there were public receptions and banquets, and the 
^.(Jlo^el — for instance, seven Americans met him in Cairo, and I 
introduced him personally to them. 

Q. Was he called upon, and did he make any addresses? 

A. Oh, made addresses and speeches sometimes. 

Q. Were you present on those occasions when he first went to 
banquets until he returned? 

A. I was ; I went, not only in my capacity as a newspaper man, 
but for the purpose of taking down in shorthand what the colonel 
said, so his remarks would not be twisted. 

O. Did you so do, did you take it down in shorthand? 

A. I did 

O. So you know, or did know, word for word, substantially all 

that he said? 

A. I did. 

O. And you knew his physical condition during that time? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. You say you went to Rome?" 

A. T did. 

Q. About how long after you arrived in Rome was it that Mr. 
Roosevelt and his wife and daughter arrived there? 

A. He arrived the next afternoon. 



Q. And the daughter was Miss Ethel, was it? 
A. Miss Ethel Roosevelt. 

O. How long did Colonel Roosevelt remain in Rome? 
A. Six days. 

g. Tell the jury what he was doing— whether he was talking, 
or exploring, or visiting, or what he was domg? 

A. He was making official calls. He was looked upon as ex- 
President of the United States, and as such he had a semi-official 
position, so that it was absolutely necessary for him, upon his arrival 
in Rome, to make certain calls. 

O. Did you accompany him on these calls? 
A. Not all of them. 

(.). Did he do anything else in the way of investigating or look- 
ing over the curiosities of ancient Rome : 

A. Oh, yes, Mr. Roosevelt went around, and he saw everythuig. 
O. In the going around and seeing what was to be seen, were 
you in his company most of the time .-' 

A. Sometimes I went with him, but I was so occupied with the 
mail that I couldn't go. 

O. During the six days, how long, during his waking hours, at 
a time, would you be away from him ? 

A. Oh, he would go to a place, and come back in an hour, and 
then I would be with him. I was usually with him all the hours 
in the day except when he was sleeping. I was with him practically 
all of the time. 

O. How long would be the longest time that he was away from 
you on any of these days, in your best recollection? 
A. About an hour. 
O. From Rome where did you go? 

A. From Rome I went to Genoa, to await him. Colonel Roose- 
velt was going with Mrs. Roosevelt over the route he had gone on 
his wedding trip ; going as a matter of romance, over the same trip. 
Q. You did not accompany him on that trip? 
A. I did not. 
O. Or anybody? 

A. Nobody excepting Mrs. Roosevelt. 
Q. Was there any large town they touched at that time : 
A. Genoa. 

O. You were in Genoa? 
A. I was in Genoa. 



Q. Do you understand from Rome and Genoa where the trip 
took him ? 

A. They went to Spezia, and from Spezia they took a carriage — 
Mr. Andrews: — I presume this witness would not know. 
A. I knew about it. 

Court : — You may strike that out. Your knowledge, witness. 
Mr. Pound: — Q. I ask you how long you remained in Genoa? 
A. Only a few hours. 

O. From Genoa where did the plaintiff go ? 
A. Porto Maurizio. 
Q. In what country is that ? 

A. That is in Italy, about six hours from Genoa; and it is 
where his sister-in-law lives, Mrs. Carow, whom he visited. 
O. From his sister-in-law's where did he go ? 
A. To \enice. 
Q. That was across Italy? 
A. Yes. 

Q. How long were he and his family in Venice? 
A. Oh, about three hours. 
O. From Venice where did the party go? 
A. To Vienna. 

Q. How long was the party in Vienna ? 
A. Two days. 

O. In your going from \'enice to \'ienna, was it a continuous 
journey, no stopping? 
A. No stops. 
Q. Was it by rail? 
A. By rail. 

Q. From Vienna where did the plaintiff and party go? 
A. Budapest. 
Q. That would be in — 
A. Hungary. 

Q. That is a part of the Austrian Empire? 
A. Yes. 

Q. How long were you in Budapest? 
A. Two days. 

O. From Budapest where did you go? 
A. We went to Paris. 
O. Continuous trips, substantially? 
A. A continuous trip. 

90 



Q. Of course you may have changed cars, but there was no 
lay-over in any place? 
' A. No. 
Q. How long was the plaintiff and party in Paris? 
A. I left two days after arrival there and came to America. 
O. You were with the party two days? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Now, when did you next see the plaintiff in this suit? 
A. Upon his arrival in New York from Europe. 
O. You came down to Washington, did you? 
A. Xo, I went to New York to see him, the day of his arrival. 
O. On the occasion of that visit, was that a friendly visit, or in 
the line of your duty, that you went to see him? 

A. I wanted to see him. I had a very high regard for the 
colonel. 

O. After that, how frequently did you see the plaintiff, for the 
next year, we will say, afterwards? 

A. I frequently went to New York and saw him at the Outlook 
office. I have been down to Oyster Bay to luncheon, and I have 
stayed over night at Oyster Bay. 

O. In the year 1910, I think it was, did you know of a trip of 
the plaintiff to St. Louis? 

A. No, I was not on that trip. 

O. The next trip, if at all, after his return from Africa, that 
vou accompanied him on, independently, now, of time, was where? 
A. For a time in the campaign of 1910, I was with him in New 
York State. 

0. He actively participated in the campaign, did he? 
A. He did. 

O. In what respect — was he a candidate for office, or a speaker ? 
A. Why, he was an advocate, to help the party in New York 
State. 

O. That is, he was advocating — 
A. Advocating the election of Mr. Stimson. 
Q. How frequently did you see him during that campaign? 
A. Well, I saw him probably seven or eight or ten times. 
Q. After that campaign was over, when was the next you came 
in contact with him? 

A. Why, I went to Oyster Bay then quite frequently, or to the 
Outlook office in New York City. 

91 



O. In regard to long trips, have you ever gone with him? 

A. In 1912 I went out with him on the trips that swung around 
the country, in the political campaign of 191 2. 

Q. Describe it, so we can follow it a little; where did you join 
him, to start, and where did you go? 

A. I started from Washington and joined the colonel in St. 
Louis. That was about September 3d ; and from St. Louis I went 
with him through Iowa, Minnesota, North Dakota, and South 
Dakota, Montana, Washington, California, Arizona, Idaho, L'tah, 
Nevada, Kansas, Xebraska, Missouri, Oklahoma, Arizona, — 

O. Did you touch Texas? 

A. No. 

O. New Mexico? 

A. No; Tennessee, ^lississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, C^,eorgia, 
North Carolina ; then I left him upon arrival at Washington, and 
he went to New York. 

O. Now, how much time, in weeks, did that take? 

A. Exactly one month. 

O. How frequently was he called upon to make addresses? 

.\. He would begin at eight o'clock in the morning, and conclude 
at ten or eleven o'clock at night ; and at twelve and one o'clock 
people would rap at the window and ask him to come out and 
speak. 

O. Where did he bunk ? 

A. He had a private car on the trip. 

O. He didn't go to a hotel or private house? 

A. No. He was constantly on that car. 

O. Where he slept ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. After that did you go upon any other trip, up to tlie present 
date, with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. That was the last campaign trip, but I saw him in New 
York after he was wounded, and recovered from his wound. 

O. Would you see him oftener than you have already said, in 
the interval when you would go up to Oyster P.ay, or to the ( )ut- 
look office? 

.\. Oh, no; I continued that. 

O. How manv times a month — or would you see him as often 
as once a month ? 

A. I would see him once a month, certainly, or oftener. 

92 



O. Your acquaintanceship with the plaintiff in this suit covers 
how many years ? 

A. About twenty years. 

O. I ask you, during your acquaintanceship of these twenty 
years, and your coming into personal touch with him, as you have 
described; your observation by eyesight; what can you say as to 
whether, in the slightest degree, at any time, you have ever seen 
the plaintiff under the influence of liquor or not? 

A. I not only have never seen Colonel Roosevelt under the 
influence of liquor, but it is an absolutely silly thing to me to have 
anybody suggest that, or the possibility of such a condition, for him. 

O. \\'ill you describe to the jury — you have been where there 
were banquets — what his use was, as you observed it, of liquors of 
anv kind, either spirituous or malt? 

A. I have been at luncheons with Colonel Roosevelt, and I have 
seen him take a glass of white wine, about an inch and a half to two 
inches, frequently with Appolinarius in it. 1 have not seen him take 
more than one glass, either of that or champagne. I have seen 
him take at a banquet — never any place else — a glass of champagne. 
And at the Gridiron Club dinners — I am a member of the Gridiron 
Club— 

O. I intended to ask you that. Have you ever attended any of 
these Gridiron Club dinners, held in Washington? 

A. I have. 

Q. You say you are a member of the Gridiron Club? 

A. I am a member of the Gridiron Club. 

O. Have you ever seen the plaintiff in this suit present as a 
guest ? 

A. T have. 

O. On about how many occasions? 

A. Half a dozen. 

O. Go ahead and describe what, if any. liquor he indulged in 
upon those occasions. 

A. By reason of the fact that T knew Colonel Roosevelt — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

A. It is the business of newspaper men — 

j\Ir. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Describe what, if any, liquor he indulged in 
upon these occasions ? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt never drank more than one glass of cham- 
pagne, under my observation. 

93 



Q. Just tell us what the Gridiron Club is? 

A. The Gridiron Club is an organization of newspaper men in 
Washington, and its purpose is to receive public men and give two 
dinners a year. At those dinners the most distinguished men in 
the world attend. And it is a social organization, pure and simple. 

Q. Do you know that in official Washington there are great 
dinners held each year? 

A. Yes, state dinners, which are given by the president. 

O. Will you designate to the jury, in giving state dinners, how 
they are divided; that is, diplomatic — 

A. Well, it has been the custom from the beginnmg of the 
government — 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. 

Mr. Pound: — Strike that out. 

A. The president gives a dinner to the speaker of the House, 
as the representative of the House of Representatives; he gives 
a dinner to the Diplomatic Corps, as the representatives of foreign 
countries; he gives a dinner to the Justices of the Supreme Court, 
as the representatives of the judiciary; and he gives a dinner — I 
am not sure ; I have forgotten — I think to the vice-president of the 
United States. 

Q. And the department of the Army and Navy? 

A. That is the Army and Navy reception. There are also five 
official receptions. 

Q. Just enumerate them? 

A. There is the diplomatic, the judiciary, the congressional, the 
army and navy, and the people's reception. 

Q. The dinners — state what the name implies ; is there some 
eating at those ? 

A. Oh, at the dinners there is. It is a dinner. 

Q. Is there a dinner after the reception, or are there any refresh- 
ments served? 

A. There is usually liquor served ; always liquors served at all 
meals, with all administrations, except the Hayes administration. 

O. Is there a dinner at the receptions? 

A. Not usually. 

Q. Is there any eating at all of the receptions? 

A. None at all. 

Q. If there were refreshments, it is liquid? 

A. Not during the Roosevelt administration, except occasionally. 

94 



Q. Just confine your attention to receptions. Now, tell this 
jury whether the plaintiff in this suit mixes his drinks at all? 
A. Never. 

Q. In other words, if he took champagne, it was that one glass ? 
A. He never took anything but that. 

Q. You say you were born and raised in Washington? 

A. I was. 

O. Of course, as a citizen of Washington — you say you are 
forty ? 

A. I am forty. 

Q. You know for at least the last thirty years the practices of 
the presidents, substantially ; is that right ? 

A. Substantially, yes. 

O. I ask you, was there any difference in the public functions 
or dinners held by the plaintiff as president of the United States, 
from those given by every president you know of during your 
recollection ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. The question is, what Mr. 
Roosevelt did. 

Court : — You asked him about dinners. In view of that cross- 
examination, the Court has held that the plaintiff is entitled to show 
that his conduct in respect to intoxicating liquors in the White 
House followed the custom of his predecessors. I think the question 
is objectionable, however, in that it does not appear that the witness 
attended any functions of the former presidents. 

Mr. Andrews : — I except to the ruling of the Court. 

Mr. Pound : — I think I am entitled to this, from a four-fold 
standpoint. I am going to — 

Court : — Do not stand before counsel. 

Mr. Pound : — I beg your Honor's pardon. 

Court : — Beg counsel's pardon. 

Mr. Pound : — I will do that ; but I am not in the habit of beg- 
ging the pardon of anybody but the Court. 

There is a reputation, as well as a fact. This witness may, as 
your Honor says, clearly testify as to what is of his personal knowl- 
edge. But I also insist that as to governmental measures, as matters 
of common notoriety, you may also show what the reputation is. 
May I modify the question? 

Court : — The Court does not agree with you. The Court holds 
that you will not be entitled to show by reputation what former 

95 



presidents did in reference to intoxicating liquors. This witness 
may testify to his knowledge on the subject. 

Mk. Pouxd: — Q. What, if anything, do you know of any pre- 
ceding administrations, or subsequent administrations, of the office 
of president, besides that of the plaintiff in this suit? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that — going into the preceding, or 
subsequent administrations. 

Court: — I think that objection is good. We will confine it to 
what the witness knows. 

Mr. I'orxD: — If 1 asked him the direct question it would be 
leading. I am asking him what he knows. 
Court: — Well, go on. 
Mr. Andrkw .s : — I except to the ruling. 
Mr. Pound: — O. Tell us what you know. 

A. I did not attend any dinners prior to the Roosevelt adminis- 
tration, but in my capacity as newspaper correspondent, it was my 
dutv to cover everything that occurred at the White House, so that 
I kn(jw what happened. 

O. During how many administrations has that been your duty? 

A. Since the second Cleveland administration. 

O. Xow, i)1ease watch the question, and do not answer until the 

Court rules : As to vour personal knowledge, from the plaintiff's 

incumbency up to the present time, what do you say as to whether 

the practices as to dinners and receptions have been uniform' 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to as immaterial, what has 
occurred since that time. 

Court : — 1 am inclined to think that he may testify, if he knows 
of the fact that recei)tions and dinners were given. 

Mr. Andrews: — Perhaps I have not made myself entirely clear. 
The witness has testified as to what occurred during Mr. Roosevelt's 
administration. It would hardly seem to me to be a precedent for 
anvthing as to what occurred since that time. 

Court : — Counsel did not object to the question on that ground. 
]\1r. Andri;ws: — I did. if your Honor please. 
Court : — The Court did not hear the objection. 
]Mr. Pound: — There is one view overlooked, and that is the 
view that the jilaintiff'. when he was upon the stand, was asked 
by the defendant. "Did you furnish liquor for the consumption 
of these diplomats and these other gentlemen?" 

Court : — The Court will exclude the testimony as to what has 
occurred since. I tliink the witness is entitled to answer, if he can. 

96 



that the predecessors of the colonel in the White House gave certain 
dinners, the same receptions and dinners which were given by the 
colonel when he was president. But when it comes to the question 
as to whether liquors were served at those dinners, we must insist 
upon the knowledge of the witness. 

I\Ir. Pound: — O. Will you state — or what can you say, since 
the administration of President Cleveland, or during his adminis- 
tration, and since that time, and under the administration of Presi- 
dent AlcKinley, whether or not those two presidents gave receptions 
and dinners? 

Mr. Andrews : — He has testified that he was not present at 
those functions. It could be the barest hearsay. I would know the 
same thing by reading the newspapers, except that he was a little 
closer to the scene of the action. 

Court : — A dinner may be given, to which he may not be in- 
vited, and yet he may know that a dinner is going forward. 

Mr. Andrews : — I will concede the dinners were going forward. 

Mr. Pound: — I do not care for any concessions in this case. 

Court : — Let us proceed in the usual way. 

Mr. Andrews : — T concede they did, and that the witness knew. 

A. I attended some receptions — 

Court : — Just a moment. Answer the question. 

A. They did follow the usual custom. 

Mr. Andrews : — I move to strike that out. 

Court : — You may strike that out — following the usual custom. 

Mr. Pound: — O. How do you know they did? 

A. Why, not only from the fact that I attended some of them, 
but also because it was my duty to report them. 

O. So that I may have the record clear, I do not want you to 
answer this until the Court has ruled. But for ten or twelve years, 
three administrations before the beginning of this, as a citizen of 
Washington, or in any manner, by inspection, by the attendance of 
the people, or anything of that kind, did you know that during the 
administration, for instance, of President Harrison, and President 
Cleveland's first administration, whether there were receptions and 
dinners given at the White House, or not ? 

A. I don't know about the first part of Mr. Cleveland's admin- 
istration, but I know that they did the latter part, and in the Har- 
rison administration. 

Q. So far as your observation was concerned, was there any 
difference whatsoever between the way the White House was con- 

97 



ducted during the time the plaintiff was the president of the United 
States, from what it had been conducted under President McKinley 
or President Cleveland, so far as dinners and receptions are con- 
cerned ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to the question as irrelevant and in- 
competent. 

Court: — Oh, I think the jury should know whether the witness 
himself has knowledge upon the subject. He says he knew, and 
says he reported them. But he may have obtained his infomiation 
second-hand. 

Mr. Pound: — May I state to your Honor why I asked it — sim- 
ply to avoid any possible objection as a leading question. 

Court : — Go on, and we will see. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Will you state, as a boy in your teens, or 
young manhood, if you had any knowledge, and if so, tell us 
what knowledge you had, of the fact that there were being recep- 
tions and banquets given? 

A. I began newspaper work when I was eighteen, and my 
duty was to go up to the White House ; I would get, for example, 
lists of the dinner guests, and I did know fully who was attending 
at the reception or dinner. Sometimes it would be an official 
function, and it was my duty to see people after that function and 
find out what happened. 

Q. Did you see them either going or coming? 

A. I saw them before and after. 

Court : — W^ell, the witness has testified now to that which is 
no more than counsel was willing to concede a moment ago, that 
these dinners were held by the predecessors of the plaintiff in the 
White House. H you intend to inquire of this witness as to what 
occurred at those previous dinners, you will be obliged to bring 
him up closer. He must have been where he saw what went for- 
ward at these dinners. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. What can you say from the knowledge you 
derived from your observation, and your information from officials 
at the White House themselves, in regard to dinners and receptions, 
as to whether there was any difference, and if so, what, in the con- 
duct of the receptions and the dinners in the administrations prior 
to the plaintiff, than was held by the plaintiff and carried on by him 
as president? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to the question : Tt is simply calling for 
comparison. 

98 



Court :— Q. I am going to ask you a question or two : Did you 
ever attend any of these dinners? 

A. I did not, in the McKinley administration. 

Q. Or any other administration prior to that of Colonel Roose- 
velt? 

A. No. 

O. Did you see them going forward? 

A. I would go to the White House to cover the— if there would 

be an official dinner I would be appointed by my paper 

Q. Listen ; were you at the White House while the dinner was 
going forward? 

A. Sometimes I would be outside of the door, waiting for them 
to come out of the door. 

Q. Where you could see what was going on there? 

A. Where I could not see what they were eating and drinking; 
but I have been at receptions. 

Q. At receptions? 

A. I have been at receptions at the White House. 

Mr. Pound: — Does your Honor exclude the question? ' 

Court:— Yes. You may ask in regard to receptions, if you 
care to. The Court will rule that the witness, not having observed 
what went forward at the banquet or dinner, is not entitled to give 
to the jury what he heard from the officials of the White House, 
or from those who were present at the dinner. It would be pure 
hearsay. 

Mr. Pound :— Q. Were you informed by the official who would 
have the dinner in charge, of the course of the dinner, before, or 
during, or after the dinner itself was held? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — The objection will be sustained. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Now, have you ever held any position under 
the United States? 

A. I was secretary of the Tokio Exposition, working under 
appointment of President Roosevelt. And upon my return from 
Japan I was appointed Assistant Secretary of State. I held that 
office during the latter part of his administration— a couple of 
months. 

Q. Was there any reason why you were appointed Assistant 
Secretary of State? 

Mr. Andrews:— I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 

99 



Court: — I cannot see the relevancy of that. 

Mr. Pound : — Well, note an exception. 

O. Those were official positions. Have you had any unofficial 
positions, or discharged any unofficial government trust? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt used me as an unofficial intermediary, as a 
means of communication between himself and the Russian and 
Japanese ambassadors in connection with the peace negotiations 
between Russia and Japan, where he made peace between those two 
countries. xA.nd, subsequently, in 1896 and 1897, when the questions 
with Japan were very acute — there was, you know, danger of war 
between the two countries, he used me for the purpose of negotiating 
an agreement with Japan, whereby the immigration question was 
settled effectively. And it was on that occasion, you will remember, 
he sent the battleship fleet around the world. 

O. I ask you, what is your relationship with the plaintiff — that 
of indifference, or friendship? 

A. I have the honor to be a warm personal friend of Colonel 
Roosevelt. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Bei.dex : — Q. You live in Washington? 
A. I do. 
' Q. You are engaged in the newspaper business? 
A. I am. 

Q. Do you give any portion of your time at present to any other 
work or occupation ? 

A. No; I am Washington correspondent of The Tribune ex- 
clusively. 

Q. Have you some connection with the Washington headquar- 
ters of the Progressive Party? 

A. None. 

Q. Are you not in charge, at the present time, of a portion of 
their work? 

A. I am not. 

Q. Not educational, or otherwise? 

A. Not at all. 

Q. You have been assisting the plaintiff in this case, have you 
not, in the preparation of evidence for the trial? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Did you not take some part in the preparation for, and the 

100 



conduct of, the depositions taken in Washington on the part of the 
plaintiff in this case? 
A. I did not. 

Q. You were present, were you not, a good portion of the time? 

A. I was not only present, but, at the request of Mr. Pound, 
from whom I received a letter, I telephoned to the various witnesses. 

Q. That is what I mean. 

A. I didn't assist anybody else in the preparation of evidence. 

Q. You helped to arrange for the attendance of witnesses at 
that time, did you not? 

A. Merely that, just as a messenger boy would. 

Q. Had you ever known Mr. Pound before he came to Wash- 
ington on that occasion? 

A. Never, nor Mr. Andrews. 

Q. Now, when was it that you were appointed to act as Secre- 
tary of the Tokio Exposition, what year? 

A. In June, 1908. 

Q. How long were you connected with that exposition? 

A. The Japanese were compelled by poverty — 

Q. No; just how long were you connected with that? 

A. With the Commission? 

Q. Yes. 

A. You see the exposition was abandoned ; and the commission 
went along for a year and a half. It didn't amount to very much, 
because the diplomatic — 

O. Then your commission lasted a year and a half? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did that work take you out of Washington? 

A. To Japan; I left in August for Japan, and returned in 
November. 

Q. That appointment you received from the plaintiff in this 
case? 

A. From President Roosevelt. 

O. During what year were you appointed by him to act as As- 
sistant Secretary of State? 

A. In January, 1909. 

Q. How long did you hold that position under Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. Until March 4, 1909. 

O. Prior to that time, I understand you had occasionally acted 
for him in an unofficial capacity? 

A. I did. 

101 



Q. That covered the peace negotiations between Russia and 
Japan, in what year? 

A. In 1904, and 1905. 

Q. How long were you connected with that work? 
A. While I was there I was the correspondent of the Chicago 
Tribune in Washington, and Mr. Roosevelt, I would go to see him 
upon these various questions, and he asked me to take this un- 
official note to the Russian ambassador, which began the nego- 
tiations. 

Q. During what time did you negotiate this treaty with Japan, 
of which you have spoken? 

A. I did not negotiate it. I merely acted, you may say, as an 
intermediary. And that was in 1908. The agreement was signed 
in October. 

Q. What was your statement with reference to sending the fleet 
of battleships around the world in this connection? 

A. That was one of the measures Mr. Roosevelt adopted to pre- 
vent war with Japan. 

Q. In what way would sending the fleet of battleships around 
the world prevent war with Japan? 

A. Well, it is perfectly evident that Japan would not go to war 
with the United States, if we were in a position to protect ourselves 
in the Pacific. 

Q. The fleet of battleships was sent around the world to demon- 
strate the ability of the United States to protect itself against the 
attacks from Japan? 

A. Or any other power. 
Q. It was intended as a menace, was it? 
A. It was intended as a measure of peace. 
Q. But as a demonstration? 

A. As a demonstration of our efficiency and efifectiveness, no 
matter who the enemy might be. 

Q. All the official positions you have ever held have been ob- 
tained from the plaintiff in this case? 
A. Yes. 

O. All of your connections with great events of the kind you 
have mentioned, have been obtained from the plaintiff in this case? 
A. Not all. 

Q. The principal part of them, I take it? 
A. Many of them. 

102 



O. Now, you met him on the Nile above Khartum, didn't you? 
A. Below Renk. 

Q. From that time on you were in close communication with 
him? 

A. I was so close to him, Mr. Belden, I would see him at nine 
o'clock in the morning frequently, and I have seen him at twelve, 
and one, and two o'clock at night. I have been, on an average, 
with him every hour in the day during the time I was with him 
in Africa and in Europe. 

Q. And you helped him to answer his letters? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. And you helped him arrange appointments? 
A. I did. 

Q. Did you know of correspondence with representatives of 
European Governments? 
A. I did. 

Q. Did you help arrange for meetings between him and the 
heads of European governments? 

A. No. All those arrangements had been made. 

Q. Did you have anything to do with making appointments for 
meeting the officials of these governments, as you went — you have 
testified that it was a part of the etiquette of the governments that 
he should call upon certain officials of the countries he visited. 
Did you help arrange for that? 

A. It was not only a part of the etiquette, but before Mr. 
Roosevelt left, these ambassadors, knowing that he was going to 
Africa, they were insisting that he should pay their countries a call 
of courtesy. 

O. For example, did you yourself assist in arranging with any 
of these ambassadors with reference to these appointments? 

A. I wrote some communications to Ambassador Reid in con- 
nection with his reception in London ; and in France, and in some 
other countries. 

Q. In what country was Mr. Reid embassador? 

A. To England. But this had been all arranged. 

Q. I understand that. 

A. The arrangements had been made at the instance of these 
governments, and not at the instance of Mr. Roosevelt. 

Q. I am asking about your connection with these matters, and 
not what arrangements had been made by somebody else. You 

103 



have spoken about the embassador to France. Who was that em- 
bassador ? 

A. Mr. Bacon — Robert Bacon. 

Q. Did you have any connection with him with reference to the 
plaintiff ? 

A. jMerely dictating and writing letters, which ]\Ir. Roosevelt 
signed. 

Q. What about American embassadors in other countries ; did 
you have any connection with them? 

A. With Mr. Leischman. 

O. Who was Mr. Leischman? 

A. Embassador to Italy. 

Q. Where was he located? 

A. At Rome. 

Q. What did your negotiations with Mr. Leischman refer to? 

A. With reference to his reception by the King of Italy, and by 
His Holiness, the Pope. 

Q. You participated in those matters? 

A. I am a Catholic — 

Mr. Belden : — I move to strike that out. I didn't ask him to 
what church he belongs, and we are not concerned with it. 

Court : — I regret that this question has come up at all. I can- 
not see that there is any occasion for crowding the witness even 
to that point. 

]\Ir. Belden : — I beg your Honor's pardon. I did not crowd 
the witness to that point. 

Court : — The Court cannot enter these objections, and the Court 
is not going to do it. In view of the question you asked, I think the 
answer ought to stand. 

Mr. Belden : — Has your Honor in mind the question I asked ? 

Court: — Let the record stand as it is. 

Mr. Belden : — Note an exception. 

Court : — You may have an exception. I suggest that you stop 
with the matter right where it is. 

Mr. Belden : — May I have an exception to what has been said 
with reference to it? 

Court : — You may have an exception to all the Court has said 
on the subject. I see no occasion for going outside of the line which 
counsel has covered with the witness on direct examination. Go 
on with the cross-examination. 

104 



Mr. Belden : — I wish my exception, of course, to extend to this 
entire matter. 

Q. Which was the last of the European countries you visited 
with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. France. 

Q. And from there you sailed for America? 

A. I sailed for America. 

O. Since your return to this country, where have you been 
located ? 

A. Washington is my headquarters. 

O. You have been connected all the time with the Chicago 
Tribune? 

A. Yes. 

O. And have traveled with the plaintiff on some of these trips 
you have mentioned ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You have been asked about the dinners given by the Grid- 
iron Club in Washington, and which you said were attended by 
the plaintiff in this case ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. That, I think you said, is a social organization ? 

A. It is. 

Q. The dinners given by the club are somewhat informal? 

A. Oh, no. They are formal dinners. 

Q. What I mean by that, they are noted for the wit of the 
speakers, the fun, and the general pleasure of those who attend 
them, are they not? 

A. Precisely. 

Q. It is, if you please the most noted organization of the kind 
in the country, is it not? 
A. It is. 

Q. And the dinners which are given by this Club are rolicking 
affairs, are they not — I don't use the word in any offensive sense 
— but dinners where fun, and pleasure and laughter are unre- 
strained ? 

A. At the Gridiron Club dinners "Ladies are always present 
and reparters are never present." That is the motto of the Club. 

Q. I didn't ask you that. 

A. Well, it shows what I am trying to give. I apologize if I 
don't answer directly. The effort is to have thoroughly enjoyable 

105 



dinners, both with reference to the stunts that are done, and with 
reference to the men who are called upon to speak. 

Q. You misunderstood me if you think my question implies that 
there was anything improper in the character of the fun. I did 
not mean that. Will you tell the jury the extent to which liquors 
are served at a Gridiron dinner, starting at the beginning, and 
telling the first liquor which is offered to the guests, and then the 
other and different liquors, down through the menu? 

A. Cocktails, red wine — red or white wine, and champagne, and 
that is all — and coffee. 

O. In the service of these wines, waiters are provided who 
keep refilling the glasses of the guests as often as they care to have 
them filled, do they not? 

A. They do. 

Q. And that is the custom through all the tables ? 

A. Yes. 

O. Now, I am not sure whether I understood exactly what you 
said with reference to the plaintiff, and if so — I will ask you first, 
did you testify that as matter of fact the plaintiff never drank 
more than one glass of champagne at a Gridiron dinner, or that you 
did not observe that he drank more than one glass? 

A. I never saw Colonel Roosevelt drink more than one glass 
of champagne at any dinner. 

Q. You were assuming to state the extent of your observation, 
and nothing more? 

A. Absolutely; but I have seen Mv. Roosevelt immediately — 

Q. Just answer the question. 

A. I want to explain. 

Court :- — The witness is entitled to explain if he desires to. 
The witness has some rights here. 

Mr. Belden : — Yes, and so has the examiner. 

A. I saw Mr. Roosevelt immediately after every one of those 
dinners, and his condition was as perfectly sober as a man could 
be — as you are this moment. 

Mr. Belden : — I move to strike that out. I didn't ask this 
witness whether he saw the plaintiff when he was sober or other- 
wise. I asked him as to — 

Court : — As to his condition. 

Mr. Belden : — The extent of his observation of the plaintiff, 
as to what the fact was. 

106 



I 



Court : — He has given you the extent of his observation. 

Mr. Belden : — Note an exception. 

Q. You are widely acquainted with newspaper men through 
the country, are you not? 

A. I am. 

Q. I ask you to state if it is not true that in 1912, prior to 
the publication of this article by the defendant, and for some time 
prior thereto, there had been current among newspaper men a gen- 
eral report — I am not asking whether you believed it or not — but 
I am asking for the existence of a general report, that the plain- 
tiff does use intoxicating liquors, and occasionally to excess? 

A. Every reputable newspaper man knew that report was a lie. 

Q. I only ask you if you know whether there was such a report? 

A. Oh, occasionally you would hear some man who was not in 
the newspaper work, and didn't know of the colonel, who might 
say something about it. But no newspaper man — no reputable 
Washington correspondent ever for one moment believed that Col- 
onel Roosevelt — believed any report, or even talked about it or 
repeated it. They thought it was silly. 

Mr. Belden : — I move to strike that out. I did not ask him 
what other men believed. I asked him as to the existence of a cur- 
rent and general report on this subject. 

A'Ir. Pound : — I object, anyhow — 

Court : — Wait. wait. He moves to strike out the answer, as not 
being responsive. What have you to say to that? 

Mr. Pound : — I think it is responsive, may it please your Honor. 

Court :-^We will strike out what the witness said, as not being 
responsive. 

Mr. Belden : — I object also — we don't want him to state what 
other newspaper men thought. 

Court : — Well, gentlemen, don't get excited here. The question 
of competency is not up now. In the meantime, we will strike 
out the testimony. 

Mr. Belden : — This question asked was as to the existence of a 
general report among newspaper men as to the plaintiff's drinking 
habits and his use of liquors to excess. The question has reference 
to reports, verbal reports in circulation. Now, I propose to follow 
that up with similar questions of this witness with reference to pub- 
lications in other newspapers. 

Court : — I get your point. Air. Belden. I think the question 

107 



ought to be argued in the absence of the jury, and we will take 
our recess here, and I will hear counsel before the jury is brought 
in. 

(Recess.) 



Court : — I understand the defendant offers to show that the 
opinion was held by newspaper men — 

Mr. Belden : — Well, it all depends upon what we are going to 
argue here. If we are going to argue simply the materiality of 
competency of that one question, that is one thing. If, since the 
jury is not here, we are going into the question, and determine once 
for all in this case, and make a record, as to whether we are to be 
permitted to show, for any purpose in this case, that the current 
and general reports which were in circulation among men; which 
were published and in circulation among newspapers, that is a 
different proposition. If you want to discuss that, I really believe 
it would be well to have a distinct understanding of just what we 
claim for this class of testimony, and they may begin the argument. 
Then I will direct it right to the points upon which we claim it is 
competent, to save time. 

Mr. Van Bensciioten : — I certainly join in that. We think 
this entire question should be disposed of ; because I assume, from 
yir. Belden's position, that it is the intention of the defense to oft'er 
evidence of this character, at least, later on, in addition to this ; 
and the opportunity affording, I think we had better dispose of the 
entire matter; and if Mr. Belden would like to state the entire posi- 
tion before we open, I will give him way. 

]\Ir. Belden :— I appreciate the courtesy of counsel, and I en- 
tirely agree that we ought to dispose of this legal question here, 
in the absence of the jury. And I will say for the benefit of counsel 
and of the Court, that we propose to follow up this question with 
other questions to other witnesses tending to develop the fact that 
there was in existence — whether this witness believed it or not — 
a general report, amounting to general reputation of the plaintiff", 
that he does use wines and liquors, and occasionally to excess. 
That not only were those reports current among men. but that they 
were published widely in 191 2, in newspapers having large circu- 
lation and which came to the exchange lists of this defendant. 
That he read those papers and read the charges against the plain- 
tiff' with reference to his drinking habits and his alleged intoxica- 
tion ; that he heard this current and general report among men. 

108 



heard it in Marquette County, heard it in Michigan, lieard it else- 
where through the country. And, so far as he was aware, this 
charge had never been contradicted by the plaintiff in this case ; and 
that he published the charge complained of in this case in the utmost 
good faith, believing it to be true; believing that the sources of 
information he had with reference to this matter were reliable; 
and that for that reason this class of testimony has a direct bearing 
upon the intent of the defendant on the question of malice, which 
has been urged with such great force in this case. 

We shall further assert and claim that we have a right to prove 
the existence of a general report, amounting to general reputation 
of the plaintiff, throughout Marquette County and State of Michi- 
gan and the country, not for the purpose of establishing the truth, 
if your Honor please, of the charge that he drinks or does not 
drink, but in mitigation of damages. Because if we reach the 
question in this case of the extent to which the plaintiff has been 
damaged, it is perfectly obvious that a man of whom the newspapers 
throughout the country are saying that he does drink to excess, and 
of whom men generally when they congregate^ talk about him— 
because we must recognize that the plaintiff has been the most talked 
about man in the United States in the past year — and it is open 
to this defendant to show, if he can, that where men have congre- 
gated to talk about him, this question of his habits has been a mat- 
ter of general comment, and that, therefore, a man of whom great 
numbers of people are saying that he drinks to excess, cannot be 
damaged to any such extent by the further repetition of this charge 
in a little country newspaper, having a circulation of about three 
thousand, as a man of whom no such statement has been made. 

Now, the testimony is competent in this case, by virtue of the 
pleadings, the case that the plaintiff himself has made and brought 
here. It is competent by virtue of the testimony he has already put 
into this case, and it is competent by virtue of the rules of law 
to which I shall refer. 

Now, in the first place, it must be borne in mind that the plain- 
tiff brought this suit. The plaintiff framed the issues in this case as 
he wanted them, and we have come here defending against a charge 
of malicious libel, rather than to come here attacking the plaintiff. 
We are on the defense, and not the aggressor. 

Now, as to the pleadings. Your Honor has once or twice sug- 
gested to counsel that it was not necessary for him to go into the 
question of reputation. Counsel replied to that, and I thought cor- 

109 



rectly, and in accordance with certain decisions of the Michigan 
Supreme Court that he undoubtedly had in mind, and which, I be- 
lieve, will control this question. When they filed the declaration 
in this case, they charged in it and put in issue, not alone the mere 
question of whether the plaintiff uses intoxicating liquors and uses 
them to excess occasionally, but they also put in issue by direct 
statements and allegations in that declaration, the question of his 
reputation throughout the county of Marquette, state of Michigan, 
and quoting from the declaration, "the civilized world." Whether 
they had to do it is one question, but the fact that they did do it 
is not open to dispute ; and the further fact that this claim of theirs, 
if true, would aggregate and increase the damages which they might 
recover in this case, is thoroughly established by the authorities. 

In the declaration they first allege that the plaintiff now is and 
always has been a good, true, honest, just, temperate, abstemious 
and faithful citizen of the United States of America, with a reputa- 
tion that is well known throughout the forty-eight states composing 
the Union, as well as known to the world, as the United States of 
America. And the plaintiff avers that his reputation is broadly 
and widely known throughout every part of the United States of 
America, as well as throughout the entire civilized world. And 
the plaintiff avers that he has, as such, always behaved and con- 
ducted himself as a becoming, upright, self-esteemed, sober, temper- 
ate, and abstemious citizen should, especially in the use of alcoholic 
and spirituous liquors. 

Now, the next paragraph avers that until the committing of the 
several grievances by said defendant, as hereinafter mentioned, was 
always reputed, esteemed, and accepted by and amongst all his 
neighbors, acquaintances, friends, and other good and worthy citi- 
zens of this state and every other state of this Union, and through- 
out the civilized world, to whom he was in any wise known, to be 
a person of good name, fame, credit, and of sober habits, to wit. 
at the city of New York, the city of Detroit. Michigan, also the 
county of Marquette, and elsewhere, wherever this plaintiff was in 
any wise known throughout the United States. 

And whereas also said plaintiff hath not ever been guilty, until 
the time of committing the said several grievances by said defendant 
as hereinafter mentioned, been suspected to have been guilty of the 
crime of habitual drunkenness or been suspected of having been a 
drunkard, or that he ever drank at all to excess. 

110 



I 



I 



Court:— I note that the pleadings do not set forth a request 
for a retraction. 

Mr. Belden : — That will be a part of our case. 
Cqurt: — In view of the fact that no retraction was demanded, 
what will be your position as to whether or not under our statute, 
the plaintiff would be entitled to damages on account of the existence 
of malice? 

Mr. Belden :— Assuming that they can prove it, if they estab- 
lish in this case that the article is libelous and untrue, and was 
published maliciously, then I am bound to say to your Honor 
that under the decisions of our Supreme Court that would increase 
the actual damages which they could recover against us. 

Court :— Regardless of the fact, if it is a fact, that no demand 
was made for retraction. 

Mr. Belden : — Oh, yes. Does your Honor wish me to go into 
that branch of the case at this time ? 

Court :— I do, because it appears to me the whole question is up 
here now. Let me express myself more clearly. H the plaintiff is 
entitled to increased damages on account of the present of actual 
malice in the publication of the article, under the pleadings, then 
the question of the good faith of the defendant will be involved. 
But if the plaintiff is not entitled to increased damages on account 
of the presence of actual malice by reason of the absence of a 
demand for retraction, then query, whether or not the question of 
good faith here is material; so it seems to me you may as well 
take up all these various angles of the question. 

Mr. Pound: — I think I can limit this. When I was first re- 
tained, my idea was to sue for fifty thousand dollars, but my client 
peremptorily instructed me that I was not to sue for any such sum, 
and I am not going to claim any punitory damages, and intend to 
stand simply on the actual damages, under the circumstances of the 
publication. 

Mr. Belden: — Precisely; we are just in this position; I do not 
ask any concessions from him. He could not claim any such dam- 
ages if he wanted to. 

Court:— That does not clear it up. The question is, whether 
you intend to ask for an increase of damages for injury to feelings, 
because of the presence of actual malice in the publication. 

Mr. Pound: — I do not. I simply want the actual damages to 
feelings in this case. 

Ill 



Court : — Actual damages then would consist of such damages as 
would result from the publication of a false statement, on the as- 
sumption that the publication was made in good faith. 

]\Ir. Pound : — I do not go quite as far as that — in the absence 
of expressed malice. 

Court : — Which means that it was published in good faith. 

AIr. Pound: — Of course our position is this — we never knew 
this defendant, and he personally probably never knew the plaintiff, 
but from the circumstances surrounding the publication, we think 
we have a right to present this as bearing upon the question of the 
actual damages, but we are not going to ask for any vindictive or 
punitory damages, because, under the instruction of the plaintiff, it 
is out of the case, and not necessary. 

Mr. Belden : — The jury is not here, and we can discuss this 
frankly with the Court. We have not come here to make any attack 
in any improper way upon the distinguished plaintiff in this case ; 
we are here to defend Mr. Newett, our fellow townsman ; and the 
proposition here is, to mulct Mr. Newett in damages, such damages 
as the law allows. And unless counsel is prepared to state that he 
will limit the case here to nominal damages, which means six cents, 
then I insist that we are entitled to contend that the issue in this 
case as made — 

Court : — W^ell, actual damages for a publication made without 
expressed malice is not six cents, by any means. A man may be 
most grievously injured in reputation and his feelings, although the 
publication was made in absolute good faith and in full belief of its 
truth ; and in such case the plaintiff is entitled to all damages which 
result ; it may be six cents, and it may be sixty thousand dollars, or 
any other sum. 

Mr. Van Benschoten : — As I understand the law, if the de- 
fendant declares that information to have been in his possession 
before the publication of the article, that he believed it to be true, 
that he relied upon it as a reliable source of information, that it 
may be received solely in reduction or mitigation of damages on his 
part. Now, if my friend urges that he is seeking this testimony 
now, intending later to connect it up, then I submit that it is an im- 
proper way of proceeding with the trial in this action. 

Court : — I do not care to hear you further on that. What 
have you to say as to the other position, that he is entitled to the 
testimony as bearing on the reputation of the plaintiff'? 

112 



Mr. Van Benschoten : — I understand that he just merely asks 
this — and I confine myself to that point— that it is being offered in 
mitigation of damages ; there being, as Mr. Pound stated, there is no 
claim for punitive damages here, and we are merely asking for the 
actual damages, as I understand Mr. Pound to state. 

Mr. Belden : — We argue broadly that this is admissible, first, 
because they made it an issue in this case by their pleadings. Second, 
because they have taken up the issue which they have made and 
offered proof on it on the witness stand, for instance, by the witness 
Gardner last night, that out of one hundred and twenty-five news- 
paper men in Washington, he thought nobody believed it. He went 
on and testified as to the general belief among newspaper men in 
Washington. Until that came in, we had not raised this question 
or asked any witness upon this point. 

Court : — The Michigan rule is very well settled that the general 
reputation of the plaintiff is a matter which the defendant may dis- 
pute; that is to say, his general reputation previous to the publica- 
tion of the alleged libelous article, and evidence of that nature will 
be received. The other question is, whether or not the defendant 
may show that other newspapers published similar charges and may 
show that it was reported among men that the plaintiff was guilty 
of similar offences. 

« 

Mr. Belden : — General report. 

Court: — The Court is very well satisfied that the defendant is 
not entitled to that testimony, and no testimony of that nature will 
be received. The witness Gardner yesterday testified on direct ex- 
amination that — testified to the opinion of certain correspondents in 
Washington; that testimony we will have to consider was drawn 
out bv the plaintiff. I think the defendant would have the right 
to rebut that statement, if he is able to do so. Now, whether or not 
the defendant will be entitled to show the source of his information, 
for the purpose of establishing good faith on his part, and belief in 
the truth of the article, must turn, it seems to me, on the other ques- 
tion whether or not the damages of the plaintiff may be increased by 
reason of actual malice in the publication, and the Court will not 
pass upon that question now. That question more properly may 
be raised and argued when that testimony is offered. I think I 
have disposed now of all pending questions. 

Mr. Belden :— May it please the Court, I desire to enter an 
objection to the ruling of the Court, and I want to be sure that I 
understand your Honor correctly. Is your Honor ruling that we 

113 



may not, for example, ask a newspaper man like Air. O'Laughlin, 
in reference to the publication of these general charges in news- 
papers having a wide circulation throughout the country, printed 
and published before the time of the article complained of, when 
coupled with the promise that we propose to show that the defendant 
had received and read those papers; is that your Honor's ruling? 

Court : — That is the ruling of the Court. I am well satisfied 
with the ruling. You have cited no authority in support of your 
position ; and as I recall the rule, it is very well settled that publi- 
cations of a similar matter by other newspapers are not accepted in 
mitigation of damages. 

Mr. Belden : — Note an exception. 

(Recess.) 



Court: — Now, gentlemen of the jury, I want to say a word to 
you. Just before you retired, counsel for the defendant asked 
of the witness who is now on the stand, this question : "What were 
your negotiations with Mr. Leischman with reference to? A. With 
reference to his reception by the king of Italy and by His Holiness 
the Pope." The next question was, "You participated in those mat- 
ters? A. I am a Catholic" — . Motion was made by the defendant's 
counsel at that point to strike from the record the statement "I am 
a Catholic," and in the discussion which followed the Court rather 
questioned the conduct of counsel in asking these questions. I 
desire to say to you, gentlemen, and you are to receive it and 
remember it, that on reflection, and after having the questions and 
answers copied out, that the Court is satisfied that counsel was 
within his rights in asking those questions ; and this statement is now 
made to you in order that any prejudice which possibly may have 
entered your minds against the defendant or his counsel by reason 
of the remarks of the Court made at the time, may be removed. 
I desire to say further, the statement, "I am a Catholic," will be 
stricken from the record, on the ground that it was not responsive. 

Mr. Belden : — We have on the record a motion to strike out the 
answer of the witness to my question as to the existence of a cur- 
rent and general report among newspaper men on the question of 
the plaintiflf's drinking habits. I don't think that has been disposed 
of. 

Court : — As to whether or not that motion should be granted, 
Mr. Pound, what have you to say? 

Mr, Pound: — I don't think it is not responsive to the question. 

114 



Court: — The motion will be granted, and it will be stricken 
from the record. 



RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Pound:— Q. During all this time that you were in such 
close companionship with the plaintiff in this case, what can you 
say as to whether or not at any time you were near enough to him to 
smell his breath? 

A. During the shaving hour, when I stood — 

Q. Answer, yes or no. 

A. Yes. 

Q. At any time have you ever perceived any odor of liquor 
upon him? 

A. Never. 

Q. I ask you, in all these years you have known the plaintiff, 
what can you say as to his conversation, as to whether or not it is 
profane and obscene, or clean? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt has one of the cleanest minds of anv man 
I ever knew. 

Q. What do you say about obscenity? 

A. Why, it is utterly foreign to my idea of Colonel Roosevelt. 

Q. Did you ever hear any? 

A. I never heard any. I know he does not indulge in it. 

Q. What about profanity? 

A. Nothing. He is not a profane man in any sense of the word. 

O. One more question. You said you met him at Khartum on 
his return from the interior of Africa. What was his condition, 
after the lapse of eleven or twelve months since the last time you 
saw him in New York before his embarkation? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt was in absolutely excellent physical shape. 
He had lost that tired look that he had when he left the White 
House, his eyes were clear and clean, and he looked as if he was 
restored by his experience in Africa to thoroughly good physical 
shape. 



GiLSON Gardner, recalled for further cross-examination, testi- 
fied as follows : — 

Mr. Andrews:— Q. You testified in your statement, I think, 
that there were a hundred and twenty-five newspaper representa- 
tives in Washington. Do you wish to say that you have never heard 

115 



the question of Mr. Roosevelt's drinking, or not, discussed among 
them prior to October, 1912? 

A. Are you alluding to my statement, or do you want the ques- 
tion answered — an answer responsive directly to that question ? 

Q. I want to know whether you wish to be understood as saying 
that you have never heard the subject of Mr. Roosevelt's drinking 
or not, discussed among those gentlemen — answer, yes or no? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. How generally have you heard it talked ? 

A. Not generally. 

Q. You have heard it among the newspaper correspondents of 
Washington, have you not? 

A. It was not regarded as — 

Q. That is not the question — yes, or no? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. For how long a time has that been a subject of discussion? 

A. During practically all of the incumbency of Mr. Roosevelt in 
office, but more particularly during the campaign, the recent cam- 
paign of 191 2, the rumor has been floating in there. 

Q. Have you ever been in the city of Boston ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Do you know whether that general talk exists there, and did, 
I mean existed prior to October, 1912, in the city of Boston? 

Mr. Pound: — T object to that, as not within the rule laid down, 
and not proper cross-examination either. 

Court : — The Court has already ruled that you are not entitled 
to that testimony; that is to say, whether you got that ruling 
recorded or not, I don't recall. 

Mr. Andrew s : — Would the Court consider it a waste of time 
for me to say a word or two on that ? I don't want to make a feast 
on it. 

Court : — I will. 

I\Ir. Andrews : — I understood your Honor that we were not 
permitted to ask as to a specific newspaper, or pick out a specific 
person, but unless we are able to go through the general reputa- 
tion from city to city, or county to county, there is no possibility of 
proving reputation through the United States. 

Court: — You may understand the Court as holding this, Mr. 
Andrews, that if a man present in this court room is seeking to 
assail the general reputation of another and can do that by bringing 
into this court room a news])a])cr ])ul)lication, you miijht just as well 

116 



say your own reputation could be attacked here to-day by the pro- 
duction of a newspaper from Cleveland which makes a public state- 
ment derogatory of your character. Neither can a man's reputa- 
tion be destroyed or affected by what all the newspapers in Cleveland 
said, necessarily, because what all the newspapers in Cleveland 
might say on that question might not constitute general reputation 
in Cleveland. The same is true of statements made by individuals. 
You are not permitted to attack the character of the plaintiff by 
showing that a few men here and there and round about said this 
or the other thing concerning his reputation. You are limited 
now% under the ruling of the Court, to proof of general reputa- 
tion. The objection to this question will be sustained. 

Mr. Andrews :— I except to the remarks, and just so there will 
not be any question about it, I ask this question. 

Q. Have you been in the city of Indianapolis and throughout 
Indiana ? 

Mr. Pound : — I object to that. 

Court : — Our Supreme Court has said, and it has repeated it, 
that when counsel has once obtained a ruling, counsel must stop. 
You have no right to bring this witness from one town to another 
for the purpose of asking the same question. 

Mr. Andrews : — I desire to ask the witness as to whether or not 
he has been throughout the state of Indiana and in the town of 
Indianapolis, its capital. 

Court : — You may ask that question. 

Mr. Andrews : — You may answer that question. 

A. At various times I have been through Indiana. 

O. How long at one time have you been in Indianapolis ? 

A. Not to spend any great length of time except to stay for a 
day or so. 

Q. How long a time have you been in other places in Indiana? 

A. Not to any great extent; just to go through them. 

Q. About how long? 

A. I took a trolley trip once through the state. 

Mr. Andrews : — In order that I may comply as near as may be 
with the ruling, may we understand that the ruling made may apply 
broadly to various communities, such as Boston and the other cities. 

Court: — I make this suggestion, if you care to adopt it; you 
may hand to the Court your offer on that subject, and we will have 
it entered on the record. The only purpose the Court has in exclud- 
ing these questions is in order that it may not be got before the 

117 



jury. You may prepare your offer and we will have it entered on 
the record. That, I think, is in conformity with our practice. 

Mr. Andrews: — I want to entirely conform to your practice, if 
your Honor please. I want to except to the ruling. 



Robert BacOxN, sworn on the part of the plaintiff', testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound : — O. What is your full name? 

A. Robert Bacon. 

O. You are a resident of where? 

A. Of the city of New York, state of New York. 

Q. Where were you born ? 

A. Boston. 

Q. How old are you? 

A. I was born in i860; I am nearly fifty-three. 

Q. How long was Boston your home? 

A. I lived there until 1894. 

Q. Until you were thirty-four years of age? 

A. When I left Boston, yes. 

Q. Now, Mr. Bacon, where did you go to college? 

A. Harvard College. 

O. What position, if any, do you occupy in Harvard College at 
the present time? 

A. I am at present what is called a Fellow of Harvard Col- 
lege, a member of one of its governing boards. 

Q. How many Fellows are there that govern the policy of 
Harvard College ? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial 
to the issue. 

Court: — The objection is sustained. 

Mr. Pound: — Note an exception. 

Q. How long have you been a Fellow of Harvard College? 

A. Since a year ago in January, I believe. 

Q. And is Harvard your Alma Mater? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What year did you enter Harvard? 

A. 1876. 

Q. How long did you continue? 

A. Four years. 

118 



Q. Are you acquainted with the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I am. 

Q. Where and when did you become acquainted with him? 

A. I met him in 1876 when I first entered college. 

Q. Did you both matriculate in the same class ? 

A. Yes, we w^ere there four years, and graduated together in 
1880. 

O. So you were in the same class for four years ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. After your graduation, what business did you turn your 
activities to ? 

A. I became a banker in Boston. 

Q. How long did you remain? 

A. Until 1894. 

Q. After your graduation with the plaintiff in this suit or in the 
same class, where did he go ? 

A. He went to New York. 

Q. Which was his home? 

A. New York was his home, yes. 

Q. Did you see him then as frequently as you had before, 
for some time? 

A. Not immediately after we graduated, because I lived in 
Boston and he lived in New York. 

O. The people in the W^est don't know all these things ; is Har- 
vard a dormitory college, do they live there on the grounds? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. When you were classmates you would sleep there in term 
time, as well as attend the classes? 

A. Yes. 

O. What degree of intimacy was there between you and the 
plaintiff during the four years of your college course? 

A. He was always a most intimate friend of mine during the 
whole four years. 

Q. As compared with the other classmates, was there any more 
intimacy — 

Mr. Andrews : — I dont' think that is material, and I object to it. 

Court: — We will sustain that objection. 

Mr. Pound: — Note an exception. 

Q. Will you state, during the four years, in a general way, 
what was the conduct of the plaintiff as to being a sober or intem- 
perate man? 

119 



A. He was one of the most abstemious and temperate men, 
then, and ever since, that I have ever knov^n. 

O. 1 am only asking you about then. Now then betw^een 1880 
and 1896, when you removed to New York, about how frequently 
did you see the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. Not very often. I was very busy in Boston and he was very 
busy in New York, but we not infrequently met, because either in 
Boston or New York we knew each other, and our intimacy con- 
tinued, and our families were very intimate. 

Q. Was there a year went by that you did not interchange — 
A. I think there might have been, yes. 
Q. Did you see him at least once a year? 

A. I am a little indefinite about that, but I kept in very close 
touch with him. 

O. You mean by close touch, corresponding? 
A. Correspondence, and general — 

Q. When did you remove to New York City so that your 

college acquaintanceship was renewed with the plaintiff in this case? 

A. We were still both very busy, so that I was not in such close 

personal contact with him as I had been before, and have been 

since ; but throughout those years- — • 

Q. Of course, when you graduated from college and received 
your degree, you were both single men ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. At the time you removed to New York you were both family 
men? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. While you men were usually busy during business hours, 
what is the fact as to the intimacy of your families, and going 
from one to the other after business hours, and being at one an- 
other's house, while the plaintiff lived in the city of New York? 
A. Why, our families knew each other very well, and on all sorts 
of occasions we were liable to meet. 

Q. Have you ever held any position under the United States 
Government ? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What was the last one you held? 
A. T was Embassador to France. 
Q. When were you Embassador to France? 
A. I was appointed in 1909 by President Taft. 

120 



Q. And remained until what time? 

A. Until April, 1912. 

O. Prior to your being appointed and qualifying as Embas- 
sador to France, had you held any other United States Government 
position ? 

A. Yes, sir, I was Assistant Secretary of State. 

Q. Immediately preceding that? 

A. No, I was Secretary of State for the last few months of 
Mr. Roosevelt's administration. 

Q. Some time prior to that you had been Assistant Secretary 
of State? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did your connection with official life in Washington 
commence ? 

A. In September, 1905. 

Q. And between 1894, when you removed to New York, and 
the year 1905, when you began your official life, will you describe 
briefly what opportunity you had of seeing the plaintiff and what 
interchange there was between you of civilities? 

A. During that period I was very busy and engrossed in work ; 
I was living in New York, and the plaintiff was holding various 
offices, as you undoubtedly know, so that from day to day I did 
not see him. 

Q. What I am getting at, did you see him as often as once or 
twice a month, or once a year? 

A. Some years were different from others. I could not give a 
very accurate answer to that. 

O. Now, after you became connected with the Secretary of 
State's office, then did you come in contact with the plaintiff in 
this suit so that you saw him frequently? 

A. Almost every day, during all those years. 

Q. Now, from the time you went to Washington until the time 
you qualified and took your departure from this country to repre- 
sent it as embassador to France, were you in the habit of seeing 
the plaintiff almost daily, or not, in Washington? 

A. That was a matter of about six months or so ; not very often, 
although we were rather near neighbors in the country, and I not 
infrequently saw him personally. 

Q. I want to know what six months or year that was? 

A. That was in 1909, if I understand rightly. 

121 



Q. That was after the expiration of his term of office as presi- 
dent, of course? 

A. Oh, yes ; of course I am wrong about that, because he had 
gone to Africa. 

Q. But from the time you began your connection with the 
Secretary of State's office up to the expiration of Mr. Roosevelt's 
term as president of the United States until he went to Africa, did 
you or did you not, see him frequently? 

A. Constantly. 

Q. Will you state to the jury what the fact is as to whether 
you have attended any social functions in the executive mansion? 

A. A great many. 

Q. Will you tell the jury whether you are apprized of Mr. 
Roosevelt's habits in reference to the consumption of liquors of 
any kind ? 

A. I lunched and dined there constantly, so that it came under 
my personal observation. 

Q. I ask you, during that entire time, what can you say of 
the condition that he actually was in as to sobriety or inebriety ? 

A. Why, he always, at all times, was a most abstemious and 
temperate man, absolutely. 

Q. How close have you been to him at times, in your conversa- 
tion with him? 

A. I believe we have discussed almost everything together. 

Q. Would you be as close as across the table ? 

A. Oh, you mean physically? 

Q. Yes. 

Mr. Andrews : — We will admit that they have been close to- 
gether and were intimate friends. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Is that so? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. What I want to know% have you ever discovered the odor 
of any liquor, or what the doctors call alcoholic breath, upon the 
plaintiff in this suit? 

A. Never. 

Q. After the plaintiff" in this suit went to Africa, when did 
you next see him? 

A. I saw him on his way home from Africa ; T was then in 
Paris, and he stayed with me for a week. 

Q. He stayed at your house? 

A. He and his family. 

122 



Q. By his family, you mean who? 

A. Mrs. Roosevelt and his daughter and son. 

Q. Which son? 

A. Kermit. 

Q. How many children has the plaintiff? 

A. Six. 

O. He was, of course, the guest of your house upon that occa- 
sion ? 

A. In Paris, yes. 

O. Where did he generally have his meals, at your house mostly ? 

A. Of course he dined out a great deal; during the week in 
Paris a great many important functions occurred, and, of course, 

it was — 

O. At all of the meals consumed in your house, were you there ? 

A. I was. 

O. Were you present on other occasions when he dined out? 

A. Always. 

Q. So that you know, so far as his conduct was concerned in 
eating and drinking, while he was visiting in Paris? 

A. I believe I took every meal with him while he was there 
during the week. 

Q. Will you tell this jury whether you observed any difference 
in his habits from what it had been during the nine years, or what- 
ever the number of years was, while you were connected with the 
state department? 

Mr. Andrews : — I don't think that is proper. 
Court: — I think counsel is right. 

Mr. Pounds— Q. What do you say as to what liquors were con- 
sumed at those functions, or in your own house during that time? 
A. Nothing except possibly a glass of champagne at some din- 
ners. Nothing at any other time. 

Q. From the time that he left Paris until you returned— by the 
way, did your term of office as embassador expire, or did you re- 
sign? 

A. I resigned. 

Q. You resigned for what purpose? 
Mr. Andrews : — I object to that. 

Mr. Pound: — My only object in asking that is, I want to show 
that he left there and became a curator of Harvard College. 
Mr. Andrews: — I will admit that. 

123 



Court : — The fact that he resigned may appear. Why he re- 
signed is unimportant. 

Mr. Pound : — O. At any rate, your business since your resigna- 
tion and after your return to this country has been what? 

A. I have been very much occupied at Harvard College ; I have 
been there. 

Q. Do your duties consume a good part of your time? 

A. Yes, most of my time. 

Q. After you returned to America and the United States after 
your embassadorship had closed, where did you make your home, 
where did you and your family live? 

A. My legal residence is in New York, and I have been there 
a day or two of every week; the rest of the time I have been in 
Cambridge and Boston; that is where Harvard is. 

Q. Have you seen very much of Mr. Roosevelt during that 
time? 

A. Yes, I have seen him a good deal from time to time. 

O. Just describe the occasions. 

A. Well, my home really is in the country near New York, and 
quite near Oyster Bay, so that I am in easy reach of Oyster Bay, 
and have constantly been there, and he has been to see me. 

O. Will you kindly tell this jury, covering your entire experi- 
ence and acquaintanceship and observation of the plaintiff in this 
suit, whether you ever saw him in the slightest degree under the 
.nfluence of liquor? 

A. Never, in the slightest degree. 

O. What do you say as to whether he is in the habit of getting 
drunk or not? 

Mr. Andrews : — I think that covers the balance of it. It would 
only be a conclusion. 

Court : — Do you insist on that question ? I think you have 
covered that. 

Mr. Pound: — Probably. Take the witness. 

CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Andrews: — O. You never were with Mr. Roosevelt on his 
trips about the country making political speeches? 
A. No. 
Mr. Andrews : — I think that is all Mr. Bacon. 

124 



L. F. Curtis, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What is your first name? 

A. Lucius. 

Q. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Thirty-three. 

Q. Where is your home? 

A. New York City. 

O. Where were you born? 

A. North Walton, New York. 

O. What is your business at present? 

A. I am financial editor of the Associated Press. 

Q. How long have you been connected with the Associated 
Press? 

A. Three years. 

Q. How long have you been connected in any capacity with the 
press generally — did you take up newspaper work? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What was the first work you did after you got through your 
schoolboy days? 

A. After I left college I became a reporter on the Philadelphia 
North American. 

O. Which college was it? 

A. The University of Pennsylvania. 

Q. Do you remember how many years ago that was, how old 
you were at the time? 

A. That was in igoi. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit, Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I do. 

O. When did you become acquainted with him? 

A. The day after his return from Africa; that was in June, 1910. 

O. Where did you first meet him? 

A. At Oyster Bay. 

O. How frequently did you see him after that up to the present 
time ? 

A. I have been with him constantly during the campaigns of 
1910 and 1912. 

O. By the campaign of 1910, do you mean the campaign for the 
governorship and state officers in the state of New York? 

A. Taking the whole period, from the time of his return until 
after the election. 

125 



O. You mean the last presidential election? 

A. After the election of 1910. 

Q. You say you were with him constantly? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Where did that take you, that is, did you remain stationary 
at Oyster Bay? 

A. We were at Oyster Bay from June until about the middle 
of August ; then we took a trip for about two weeks, and returned 
to Oyster Bay. 

Q. You say you took a trip. Where did you take a trip, 
through the states ? 

A. We went through the middle West and as far west as 
Denver. 

Q. How long did you say that took? 

A. About three weeks. 

Q. Have you taken any other trips ? 

A. Yes, on the return from that trip we went to Saratoga to 
the Republican state convention ; and then a few days later on a 
trip of about a week through the South ; immediately following that 
we spent a week in the campaign in New York state, which took 
us up to the time of election. 

Q. By spending the week you mean — 

A. Traveling all through the state. 

O. During all those times where did you and Colonel Roosevelt 
sleep ? 

A. At hotels, or on trains — you mean during the trips? 

O. Yes. 

A. Usually on the trains. 

O. What portion of the day would the plaintiff in the suit be 
under your eyesight? 

A. From the time he arose until he went to bed, unless he was 
by himself in his stateroom, or at some private function. 

Q. After the state campaign in New York was over in 1910, 
when was the next trip that you accompanied the plaintiff in this 
suit on, if at all? 

A. He remained in Oyster Bay until about a week after election 
and then returned to New York, and during the one year and a 
half I saw him at infrequent intervals, perhaps once or twice a 
month, until the next year, until February of last year. 

O. 1912? 

A. 1912. 

126 



Q. And then, what? 

A. At that time I was detailed by the Associated Press to accom- 
pany Colonel Roosevelt to Columbus, Ohio, where he spoke before 
the legislature. 

Q. What legislature? 

A. The legislature of Ohio. From that time until a few days 
after the recent election I was with him every day. 

Q. During that time through what states did he travel, begin- 
ning as near as you can — ^I don't want every station ? 

A. I could put it broadly by saying that we have been in every 
state in the Union with, I think three exceptions. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether it was your duty to listen 
to his addresses from point to point? 

A. It was. 

O. After the election of 191 2 and since that time how frequently 
have you seen the plaintiff in the suit? 

A. Why, only perhaps half a dozen times, until last week. 

O. When you did see him, where did you see him, at Oyster 
Bay, or in New York, or where ? 

A. I saw him once at a banquet in New York, and on other 
occasions at his office in New York. 

Q. From your first acquaintanceship with Mr. Roosevelt up to 
the election of 191 2 in November, what can you say, from your 
association with him and your observation of him, what he does 
in the way of consumption of liquors, either spirituous or malt; 
just describe it to the jury? 

A. I can put that best by simply saying that Colonel Roosevelt 
never drinks unless as a matter of courtesy to the guests that he is 
entertaining, or to his host, or perhaps on the advice of a physician. 

Q. During all this time, what do you say to the jury as to 
whether you discovered the slightest trace of any conduct or action 
that would have a tendency to show that he was in the slighest 
degree* under the influence of liquor? 

A. I did not. 

Q. Now I ask you the question, during the time of your asso- 
ciation with him, what can you say as to whether it was or was not 
possible for Mr. Roosevelt to get drunk and you not know it? 

A. He could not have gotten drunk without my knowing it. 

Q. Could he have gotten, in the slightest degree, under the in- 
fluence of liquor without your knowing it? 

127 



A. He could not. I want to make one exception. There were 
one or two periods of a day when he was at some private house, 
like Mr. Garfield's in Cleveland, when I did not see him, or some- 
times a night and day at Oyster Bay when I did not see him. 

Q. You have said you have been a number of times at his house 
in Oyster Bay, and I understand for weeks at a time. Now, how 
much of him did you see when you were at Oyster Bay? 

A. Usually twice a day. 

Q. Did you not live there as a guest, or were you on business? 

A. I was there on business. 

O. So that you would have talked with him, and find out what 
was necessary in your line of business? 

A. Yes. 

O. Did you ever see him at any time at home when he was in the 
slightest degree under the influence of stimulants? 

A. I did not. 

O. Have you ever dined wnth Colonel Roosevelt or taken any 
meal with him? 

A. I have. 

O. Now, on these cars, I wish you would describe on these trips 
how it was arranged, so the jury will understand it, what car of 
the train was it, for instance, that the plaintiff occupied? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt almost always had the rear car of the train, 
a private car. 

O. Was there a car in the train that was the special property, 
as it were, of the gentlemen of the press? 

A. Yes, and on longer trips we had the car immediately ahead 
of his, and those two cars were cut off from the rest of the train, 
so we were practically all there together. 

Q. C^n vour shorter trips, where would you be in reference to 
the car that Mr. Roosevelt was on, or I will put it this way, have 
you ever been in the same car with the plaintiff ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you state to the jury whether you were in the same car 
with him, or w'hat opportunities you had of seeing him, and what 
you did, vou gentlemen of the press, in reference to watching Mr. 
Roosevelt so that if he felt disposed to say anything you would use 
it for publication ? 

A. On an ordinary day of the campaign trip I saw him I suppose 
fifty times a day : in fact, every few minutes, because my duties 
required me to be constantly passing back and forth. 

128 



CROSS EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Belden : — Q. Your acquaintance with the plaintiff began 
on his return from Africa, I think you said? 

A. Yes. 

Q. During what year was that ? 

A. 1910. 

O. So that the period about which you are most particularly 
testifying would be from 1910 to 1912, is that right, at the end of 
1912? 

A. 1910 until — 

Q. You have seen him only a few times since then? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You went with him on a number of trips about New York 
state and also throughout the country campaigning? 

A. I went with him on all the trips he made. 

Q. On those trips the gentlemen of the press had their own car 
which was separate from the car occupied by the plaintiff? 

A. Sometimes. We had various arrangements ; sometimes we 
traveled on regular trains for short trips, and on a few occasions 
there were only three or four newspaper men, and we were all in 
the same car that Mr. Roosevelt had. 

Q. Do you know, as matter of fact, whether a supply of wines 
and liquors was carried in the plaintiff's car on those campaign trips, 
do you know whether they were carried or not ? 

A. I do. 

O. Will you state the facts as to whether they did or not? 

A. I don't think I can tell you about 1910; I have no distinct 
recollection of that, but in 1912 during the first two or three trips 
we made the Pullman company had the usual supply which was 
always put on a private car ; at that time orders were given that 
the Pullman company should not place any intoxicants on board the 
cars, and that rule was followed thereafter. 

Q. Tell the jury what you mean by the usual supply on a Pull- 
man company car. 

A. It is my understanding that whenever a private car is sent 
out the Pullman company stocks it with certain liquors, cigars, 
cigarettes and other articles which the occupants of the car may 
require. 

Q. Was his car stocked on certain of those trips with such a sup- 
ply? 

129 



A. I know that the newspaper car was ; I can't tell you definitely 
that Colonel Roosevelt's car was. 

O. You don't know whether it was or was not? 

A. I can't tell you definitely. 

Q. Do you know definitely of your own knowledge whether his 
car was or was not stocked on any occasion, did you ever examine 
to see, I mean stocked with wines? 

A. I never made any examination, no sir. 

Q. I will ask you to state whether or not on these campaign 
trips, wines or liquors were served at the plaintiff's table, if you 
know, on the car? 

A. They were not. 

Q. Not at all? 

A. Not at all. 

Q. You may state whether or not you ever saw him drink wine 
or liquor of any kind on those trips. 

A. I did not. 

Q. I call your attention to the campaign trips of 1912, where 
you accompanied him, and ask you to state whether or not you 
ever saw him drink any wines or liquors on those trips ? 

A. I wish you would make a distinction, whether you mean on 
the train or at any other time during the trip. 

Q. We will put it on the train, to start with? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Have you seen it elsewhere on those trips? 

A. I have. 

Q. I will ask you where you have seen him drink wines or 
liquors ? 

A. At the St. Louis Country Club in 1910, Colonel Roosevelt 
drank, I should think, about two swallows of mint julep; he only 
touched it to his lips and set it down. At Senator Warren's ranch 
at Cheyenne, Wyoming, he drank some sort of wine ; I don't know 
what it was. 

Q. Are those the only two occasions in 191 2 that you saw him 
drink wines or liquors of any kind? 

A. Yes, so far as my memory is now clear. You were speaking 
of 1910, were you not? 

Q. I was asking you about 1910. 

A. Both of those were in 1910. 

O. I am speaking of tlic trips on which you accompanied him in 
It; 10. I will ask you to state whether or not these two occasions 

130 



you have mentioned are the only occasions, so far as you know, that 
he drank in that year? 

A. They are. 

O. Now, I will call your attention to occasions when you have 
been with him in 1910 outside of those trips, and ask you if you 
have seen him drink wines and liquors ? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Not at any time or any place, in that year? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. I call your attention to the year 191 1 and ask you if you 
traveled with him during that time? 

A. So far as I recall, he made no such trips. 

Q. He made no trips in 191 1? 

A. Not that I think of. 

Q. To what extent were you associated with him or was he 
under your observation, in 191 1 ? 

A. I saw very little of him in that year. 

Q. Very little during the year 191 1? 

A. Yes. 

Q. So that your next intimate association with him would be 
in 1912, would it? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you accompany him on all his trips in 1912? 

A. Yes. 

O. I will ask you if you saw him on those trips drink any wines 
or liquors on the train? 

A. I did not. 

Q. Of any kind? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Did you see him on those trips on other occasions when he 
was not on the train, drink any wines and liquors? 

A. I did not. 

Q. Did you go to any banquets with him? 

A. I did. 

Q. Were wines served at the banquets? 

A. Sometimes. 

Q. Champagne served at those banquets? 

A. Sometimes. 

Q. I will ask you whether or not he drank champagne at those 
banquets ? 

A. So far as I know, he did not. 

131 



O. Do you know about what he drank on those occasions? 
A. I can only say that he was under my close observation and 
I never saw him drink wine, nor saw any appearance of it. 

Q. Are you able to say of your own knowledge whether he did 
or did not drink champagne on those occasions ? 
A. I can't say that he took no champagne. 

Q. Did you accompany him in his trips in the early part of the 
year during what we will call the primary campaign? 
A. I did. 

Q. I will ask you whether or not you know whether there were 
any liquors in his car on the occasion of those trips? 
A. I don't know. 
Q. Did you go with him? 

A. Allow me to make a correction. I do know that on some 
of those trips some members of the party had liquors in their pos- 
session, but there was no general stock on the car. 

Q. I understand you to say that wines and liquors were not 
served at the table? 
A. That is true. 

Q. So far as you know, they didn't have any? 
A. I didn't say that, sir; you asked me if I had inspected the car 
to see whether the Pullman car was stocked with wines and liquor?. 
That is the way I understood you. 

Q. What is the fact about the matter ; I want to know whether 
you were in a position to testify definitely one way or the other on 
this question? 

A. I was in a position to say that some men who at times trav- 
eled on the car had liquor with them. 

Q. Did you go on the long trip to the Pacific Coast later during 
the presidential campagn? 
A. I did. 

Q. Through to Portland and down to San Francisco? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Were there any liquors in the car on that trip? 
A. Just as I told you. 
Q. Carried by somebody else ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Are you able to say definitely on this occasion that there was 
or was not liquors stocked in his car? 
A. Just as I have told you, sir. 

132 



Q. You don't know whether he had or had not such a stock on 
hand? 

A. I know that he did not. 



Truman H. Newberry, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testi- 
fied as follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Your name is Truman H. Newberry? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Of what state are you a resident? 

A. In the town of Grosse Point in Wayne County, near Detroit. 

Q. How long have you been a resident of Wayne County? 

A. Forty-eight years. 

Q. Is that the total period of your existence? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you ever been connected with the Navy Department 
of the United States ? 

A. Yes, sir; I was Assistant Secretary from the ist of Novem- 
ber, 1905, until November, 1908; I was then Secretary from 1908 
until March, 1909. 

Q. Whom did you succeed in the position of Assistant Secre- 
tary? 

A. Mr. Darling of Vermont. 

Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I do. 

0. When did your acquaintanceship with him first begin? 

A. In the fall of 1896, in Detroit. 

Q. And at any time did it become somewhat intimate ? 

A. Yes, sir; at the time of our first acquaintance our intimacy 
began, and I am proud to say it has continued up to the present time. 

O. Now, when you became Assistant Secretary of the Navy, 
what is the fact as to whether by virtue of your office you came in 
contact with the plaintiff, who was then president? 

A. I should say nearly every day, either officially or unofficially, 
I saw tlie president during a period of three and a half years at any 
rate. 

Q. Have you been an invited guest at the White House ? 

A. Frequently. 

133 



Q. What is the fact as to whether your respective families be- 
came, to a certain degree, somewhat intimate? 

A. They did. 

Q. At the time that you first saw the plaintiff in this suit, do 
you know what official position he held? 

A. I think he was then police commissioner of New York. 

Q. Have you ever accompanied him as an invited guest or other- 
wise, on any tours of inspection, in any official capacity? 

A. Yes, I have been with him on various inspections of the 
battle fleet. 

Q. Do you remember in the year 1897, the year after the form- 
ation of your particular acquaintance, of any inspection of the 
volunteer naval forces of the states of Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio? 

A. Yes, sir, at the time Mr. Roosevelt was Assistant Secretary 
of the Navy he made an official inspection of the Michigan naval 
militia, of which I was one of the senior officers. 

Q. Did you come in contact with him during the time of the 
inspection ? 

A. Yes, sir, for a period of about three days when he was on 
that inspection, and later, a few days later, he made a trip as my 
guest for a period of nearly a week on my own boat. 

Q. At that time was there any particular thing that the plaintiff 
had in hand or that he was doing or preparing, in reference to Lake 
Erie, for instance? 

A. Yes, sir. he was writing the history of the battles of Lake 
Erie for Howard Clows, a history of the British navy. 

Q. In the fall of 1897 and spring of 1898. was that a period of 
some turmoil in the office of the Secretary of the Navy, preparatory 
to apprehended trouble? 

A. Well, not particularly apprehending trouble; the government 
had loaned the state of Michigan a training vessel, and I had most 
of the arrangements to make with the Navy Department, and in that 
way I frequently saw Mr. Roosevelt officially in Washington, and 
frequently informally, too. 

Q. During the period of suspense before war was actually de- 
clared, but after it had been decided by resolution of Congress that 
war should be declared, and official notification had been given, did 
you come in touch with him as Assistant Secretary of the Navy, the 
plaintiff in this case? 

134 



A. Yes, I came in touch with him, when he ordered us to go to 
war. 

Q. At that time what position were you occupying in reference 
to the naval forces from Michigan? 

A. I was second in command of it. 

Q. In the year 1898 and from that to 1904, by correspondence 
and personally, will you state to the jury what degree of touch you 
were in with the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. Why, I corresponded with Mr. Roosevelt when he was gov- 
ernor of New York, and when he became president, frequently on 
various topics, and when I was in Washington during those four 
years. 

O. When was it you said you became Assistant Secretary of the 
Navy? 

A. I took the office the ist of November, 1905. 

Q. By whose appointment? 

A. By the appointment of the president of the United States, 
Mr. Roosevelt. 

Q. Who was then president of the United States? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt. 

O. After you became Assistant Secretary of the Navy and dur- 
ing the time you held that office, you officially came in close touch 
with the plaintiff? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Besides official duties, did you participate with him in any 
other way, as bearing on your intimacy? 

A. I took one hard walk with him, and played several games of 
tennis with him. 

Q. Wliat is the fact as to whether you yourself, or as Secretary 
or otherwise, together with the plaintiff, made any inspections, 
governmental inspections of vessels during his administration? 

A. W'e did. We inspected the battle fleet, both before it went 
away, and on its return. 

Q. WHiat is the fact as to whether you were an invited guest at 
his home at Oyster Bay, New York? 

A. I was. 

Q. Now, since ]ylarch, 1909, which was the expiration of his 
term, for which he was elected president of the United States, 
what is the fact as to whether you have seen the plaintiff in this 
suit, or not? 

135 



A. I have seen him, oh, I should say five or ten times a year, 
since that time. 

O. Have you attended functions, or participated in meals to- 
gether, either at your place or his place, or some third person's 
place ? 

A. Yes, sir, frequentlv in New York, and occasionally at Oyster 
Bay. 

O. From your observation of the plaintiff in this suit, will you 
tell the jury what you can say as to his habits of consuming liquor, 
as to whether he abstains entirely, or uses it freely, or whether it is 
a habit on him, or how would you describe the situation as you 
found it, from your inspection? 

A. I have never known Mr. Roosevelt to take a drink, what I 
call taking a drink socially; I have never seen him take anything, 
except at some formal occasion, and then possibly a glass of wine; 
not anything beyond that : I never knew him to take a drink with 
anybody ; he has not any with me, and I never heard of him taking 
it with anybody else. 

Q. Will you state to the jury whether, during your entire ac- 
quaintanceship with the plaintiff in this suit, you have ever seen him 
consume even what you have described, to an extent that would in 
any way affect him so that you could perceive it? 

A. I never knew at any time, any day, that Mr. Roosevelt had 
taken a drink ; I never saw an indication, or knew anybody that had 
ever seen an indication of it. 

Q. Will you state what is the fact, covering your entire ac- 
quaintanceship with the plaintiff, as to whether he is a strictly sober 
man, or intemperate ? 

A. He is a strictly sober man. 

Q. When he was president of the United States, how late have 
you seen him, either officially or unofficially, in the evening? 

A. I have seen him officially very late, on official business. 

Q. Tell me how late. 

A. Oh, one o'clock or after, between one and two o'clock in the 
morning; I think that was the latest. 

O. That would be on some matter of emergency? 
.v. Yes. sir. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether you ever saw him at any times 
when he was not alert and keen and able to do business ? 

A. There was never a time when he was not alert and keen. 

136 



O. Have you ever seen him proffered any liquor that he de- 
clined ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

T^Ir. Andrews :— The witness can describe what he saw. 

Co^-RT :_i think so. That is rather leading. 

yiR. Pound :— It was preliminary. 

O. What, if any liquors,— do you know whether there is any 
difference in'his tastes for liquors, and describe what you have seen 
in that connection ? 

A. I have one occasion in mind when he was my guest for a 
week, and on an occasion when a man would act perfectly natural 
if he ever would, and at that time he constantly and consistently 
declined to take such things, or anything to drink in the way of 
liquor, either during or after dinner, except wine, as I have spoken 

of before. 

Q. As I understand, the only liquor he has ever consumed to 

your knowledge is simply wine? 

A. That is all I have ever known him to take. 

O. What is the fact, during this time, if you can tell the jury, 
whether the intimate friends of the plaintiff in this suit were more 
or less your own intimate friends, whether the friends were mutual ? 

Mr. Andrews:— I object to that; I don't see the bearing of it 
in this case. 

Court: — I agree with counsel. 

Mr. Pound: — Note an exception. 

O. Did you become acquainted, while he was a resident of 
Washington, with his intimate friends? 

A. Many, if not most of the president's intimate friends socially, 
were my friends. 

O. You did become acquainted with them? 
A. I did, yes, sir. 

Q. And those friends, were you or were you not acquainted 

with them? 

A. I was acquainted with many of them. 

Q. Do you know Uncle Joe Cannon, of Danville, Illinois? 

A. I do, sir. 
. 0. About when did you get acquainted with him? 

A. When I went to Washington officially to live in 1905. 

Q. Do you remember a celebration over his seventieth birthday? 

A. I do. 

Q. Where was it held? 

13 r 



A. The one I recall was a reception held in the evening at the 
Arlington Hotel in Washington. 
Q. Were you there? 
A. I was, yes, sir. 

Q. Will you state to the jury what are the facts as to whether 
you saw the plaintiff there, who was then president ? 

Mr. Andrews:— We object to their going in this way into 
particular instances, such as he is now specially calling attention to. 

Court: — This line of testimony has been coming in since the 
case opened. The charge made by the newspaper is that the plain- 
tiff gets drunk. The plaintiff is seeking to prove that charge to be 
false, and in doing so, it seems to me, clearly he is entitled to cover 
every moment of his life, if he cares to do so. If you insist on that 
question, you may take the answer. 

A. I did. I saw him come in. 

Mr. Pound:— O. Will you state to the jury what time of day 
or night that reception was held ? 

A. In the evening, the usual hour, which would be between nine 
and ten, I should think. 

Q. When he came in upon that night was he alone, or accom- 
panied ? 

A. He was always accompanied by some one. 
Q. Do you remember on that occasion who was with him ? 
A. I do not; I should say Secret Service men generally. 
Q. How long did he remain there? 

A. My recollection is that it was only a short time, because he 
left before I could see him leave. 

Q. What do you know, if anything, about his drinking any 
liquor at that reception? 

A. I did not see him drink anything, or know of it. 

Q. Now, at the time that he came in, when you saw him come, 
how close was he, the closest that you came to the plaintiff on that 
occasion ? 

A. About as far as I am from you. 

Mr. Andrews: — Perhaps the record would not show that in 
feet. About twenty feet ? 
"A. About twenty feet. 

Mr. Pound: — When he went away, about how far was he? 
A. I didn't see him go away. 

138 



Q. Did you see him greet anybody, or anybody greet him as he 



came m 



Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — Well, it is a harmless question. It will be conceded 
that it is immaterial. If it is preliminary, you may take the answer. 

A. I was there when he greeted the host of the evening, Mr. 
Cannon. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. From what you saw of him, and the saluta- 
tion which was made, what, if any. indication did you see of his 
being or not being under the influence of liquor? 

A. He was perfectly natural, or I would certainly have noticed 
it, because I was observing him very closely. 

Q. By natural, in that connection, you mean what? 

A. Perfectly normal. 

Q. To put it the other way, the question I ask you is, whether 
or not — what was his condition as sobriety or inebriety ? 

A. Perfectly sober, perfectly himself. 



CROSS-EXAMINATION 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. Mr. Newberry, you say you were, at the 
time you mention, about twenty feet away from Colonel Roosevelt? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. The room was pretty well thronged, was it? 

A. I stood right in the entrance. 

Q. The question was, was the room pretty well thronged? 

A. Not particularly, the room in which the receiving was done. 
The rooms behind it were, my recollection is. 

Q. Did you go in the other rooms with the Colonel? 

A. Just after him. 

Q. You didn't see him go away? 

A. I didn't see him when he left, no. 

Q. The time your attention was called to him was when he first 
came there? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When he greeted the host? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When you were connected with the naval department of the 
state of Michigan, what did that consist of? 

139 



A. It consisted of the volunteer naval militia, which were 
trained on board the United States cruiser Michigan. 

O. And your headquarters were at Detroit? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went to the capital in connection with your interest in 
that naval department? 

A. Partially, yes, sir. 

O. During the time you were at the capital, you never made 
any political trip, any speaking trip with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. You mean between what years ? 

Q. At the time when you were in the cabinet? 

A. Either official or unofficial ? 

Q. In any way, while you were there ? 

A. I never went on any political trips, no sir. 
( Ad J o u R X .M E N T . ) 



Nine o'clock Thursday morning, May 29, '13. 

Ch.arles VV. Thomp.son, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, tes- 
tified as follows : 

Mr. Pound: — O. Your full name is what? 

A. Charles Willis Thompson. 

O. Where do you reside? 

A. New York City. 

Q. Where were you born ? 

A. Kalamazoo, Michigan. 

O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Forty-two. 

O. What is your occupation ? 

A. I am a newspaper writer. 

Q. How long have you been engaged in that business? 

A. Nineteen years. 

O. Will you tell me for whom and with whom you have been 
connected during that time? 

A. First with the New York World, then the New York Trib- 
une, and then with the New York Times ; and after that for a short 
time with the World, and now^ back to the Times. 

O. How long have you been with the Times, altogether? 

A. I went to the New York Times sixteen years ago. 

Q. And you are working — 

140 



A. I left my position with the World as head of the Washing- 
ton Bureau of the W orld, and came back to them. 

Q. When did you become acquainted with the plaintiff in this 
case? 

A. At the beginning of 1906. 

Q. What brought you together? 

A. I was Washington correspondent of the Xew York Times 
and the plaintiff was then president. I didn't happen to see him 
much up to that time, because my paper was opposing his candi- 
dacy, and I didn't feel free to go to him ; but about that time I 
wrote a book, and the President sent for me — 

Mr. Andrews : — The question is as to when he became acquaint- 
ed with the plaintiff. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. You went on invitation, did you? 

A. Yes. 

Q. That formed your first personal acquaintanceship? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you proceed and tell us what degree of intimacy ensued 
between you and the plaintiff from that time on? 

A. Well, from that time on until I left, which was about the 
end of President Roosevelt's term, I used to go to the White House 
to see him about matters pending before Congress, legislative and 
government matters generally, which I wanted to find out about 
for my paper, and find out about the political trend of things, in 
answer to telegrams I have received from the office to find out what 
he knew about it, and to keep myself informed about everything 
he could possibly tell me. 

Q. Will you tell the jury wdiat that entailed upon you so far 
as the times of your seeing him and the length of your interviews? 

A. Well, I saw him at any hour of the day. 

Q. How early was the earliest, that you recollect? 

A. About twelve o'clock, about noon. 

Q. And how late? 

A. About five or six ; five o'clock, I would say. 

O. Tell us as to the shortest duration and longest duration of 
your interviews. 

A. I think the shortest time that I ever talked with him was 
about five minutes ; usually it was longer than that, and not more 
than about three-quarters of a hour, and I was always alone when 
I saw him, with one exception. 

141 



Q. Will you kindly tell the jury how close you were to him in 
the interviews? 

A. Why, he was sitting down at his desk, and I sat down either 
alongside of him or across the desk ; sometimes I sat by him and he 
put his hand on my shoulder and we talked. 

Q. So that you would be within arm's reach of one another? 

A. Oh, yes. On one or two occasions I saw him in his barber 
chair when he was being shaved. 

Q. Did your acquaintanceship ripen into something like per- 
sonal intimacy? 

A. Not exactly. My paper was opposing him, and I didn't 
want to — 

Q. Your interviews were in a professional way? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Representing an opposition sheet? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Not using the term offensively at all? 

A. No. 

Q. Will you state whether that continued during his entire term 
as president, until March 4, igog'? 

A. No; I left there in the western campaign of 1908 to go out 
with Mr. Bryan on his canvass for president; when I came back I 
left the New York World and went to New York, and I have been 
there ever since ; but it continued up to the last year of Mr. Roose- 
velt's term as president. 

Q. Covering about six years? 

A. Oh, no; it started in the beginning of 1906, or late in 1905, 
and continued until the campaign of 1908. 

O. What can you say as to the plaintiff's condition as to sobriety 
during all the time of your official visits with him? 

A. You mean when I knew him in Washington, or when I 
knew him afterwards? 

Q. I am now talking about the time when he was president. 

A. He was always absolutely sober. There never was the slight- 
est sign of intoxication. 

O. In his speech or manner? 

A. His manner was always the same; it never changed. 

Q. Do you know an institution at Washington called the Grid- 
iron Club? 

A. Yes, sir; I am a member of it. 

142 



O. Will you state to the jury whether or not you have held any 

office in it? 

A. No office ; I was a member of the entertainment committee, 
which is the organization that gets up the skits down there that 
they perform always. 

Q. How many dinners do you give a year ? 
A. As a rule, two; sometimes three. 

Q. During the time he occupied the presidential chair, did the 
plaintiff ever attend? 

A. He attended all of them, as I remember. 
Q. Will you kindly tell the jury, by reason of your position, 
what you can say as to whether or not— first, how were you situ- 
ated, as to whether you had a view of him or not, and whether he 
was wathin the range of your vision? 

A. He was always within the range of my vision. He sat at 
the head of the table, say where the judge would be, and I would 
be sitting at the side, about where the reporter is, and when it came 
my turn to take part in a skit, in which I did take part, as I was 
a member of the entertainment committee, these skits were being 
performed directly in front of where the president sat. The presi- 
dent of the United States sat at the head of the table and there 
was a wide open space in front of it, and the skit was performed at 
the end of the space directly opposite, so I would stand where I 
could look the president directly in the eye when I would take part 
in the skit. When the skit was over I would sit back at my table. 
Q. Did you so do? 
A. I did. 

Q. Will you kindly state to the jury, during the time the 
plaintiff was in attendance upon any of those Gridiron dinners, 
what was his condition, in coming in. or while he was there? 

A. Why, he would come in as one of the guests would, in an 
ordinary manner, and stop to speak to his friends. I would say that 
the Club never went into the dining room until the president of the 
United States had arrived; the guests would be in the reception 
room until he came in ; and when the president came in, he would 
be around the room holding these conversations, and at a signal. 
which was the ringing of a bell, the president would lead the 
way into the dining room and take his seat at the head of the 
table, and the president would sit there talking with his friends 
and laughing at the jokes, and otherwise behaving like any other 
gentleman at the dinner table. 

143 



Q. What can you say, if anything, of the indulgence in any 
kind of liquors, either spirituous or malt, by the plaintiff in attend- 
ance upon a Gridiron Club dinner? 

A. He nearly always kept a glass of champagne before him. I 
think he always did when I was there, and once in a great while he 
would take a sip from it. He never had more than one glass, and 
most of the time he was so busy talking with his friends and so much 
interested in the skits that he would pay no attention to the cham- 
pagne glass. 

Q. Tell the jury whether you would see him about the time he 
left. 

A. Yes, he never stayed through the dinner; he always made a 
speech, and usually directly after the speech, which was about half- 
way through the dinner, the president would leave the dining room 
and go back to the White House to go on with his work ; that would 
be about half-past ten at night, I guess. 

Q. During the president's term of office, and your interviews 
with him, as a member of the Gridiron Club, or in your official 
capacity as a newspaper man, you may state to this jury whether 
you have ever seen him in the slightest degree under the influence 
of intoxicants, or not? 

A. Never. 

Q. W'hat other times have you seen the plaintiff in this suit 
after you left Washington, as representative of your paper, the 
New York World, which you were then with? 

A. The New York Times. I returned to the Times in 1912, 
when Colonel Roosevelt took his eleven-thousand-mile swing around 
the circle to San Francisco. The New York Times assigned me to 
go with him throughout that trip, so that I made reports of his 
speeches, and reported everything about him, observing him closely, 
reporting how he acted and everything I could possibly notice while 
I was with him. 

Q. Did you so do? 

A. I did. 

Q. How closely did you come in contact with the plaintiff during 
that trip, personal touch, I mean? 

A. As to proximity, you mean? 

Q. Yes. 

A. Why, I would generally go and see him a dozen times a day; 
when he went out to make a rear platform speech — whenever the 

144 



train stopped and he would go to the rear platform to speak to 
the crowd, I would go and stand alongside of him. I would stand 
there and take notes of everything about him, what he did and said 
and what impression it made on the crowd that he spoke to ; that 
is what I was there for. When he would come back into the car, 
when the train had pulled out, Colonel Roosevelt would come in, and 
I would talk to him about the speech he had made and sometimes 
we would sit down together. Then, of course, I would go into 
his car and see him, what he was doing, see what he did in there 
when he was taking lunch ; his stenographer and his nephew and 
others were sitting at the table ; of course I was not invited in there 
to do that, but I would go to see him about telegrams I had re- 
ceived from my employers ; and there were no liquors on the table, 
or any wine glass. 

Q. We have had a witness here on the stand by the name of 
Curtis. Is he the gentleman you referred to? 

A. Yes ; he sent the reports of Colonel Roosevelt's speeches to 
the papers, of which mine was one. 

Q. During that entire trip of a month, what can you say to this 
jury as to whether or not you observed any indication of inebriety 
upon the part of the plaintifif ? 

A. Not the slightest, in any particular. 

O. Did you afterwards at any other time have occasion to see 
him? 

A. Yes, sir ; after that trip was over, after the month w^as ended, 
I was sent with Woodrow Wilson out campaigning at the same 
time that Colonel Roosevelt was shot in Milwaukee. As soon as 
he was shot I was taken away from Mr. Wilson, and attended 
Colonel Roosevelt at Mercy Hospital, and stayed there while he 
was under the doctors' care, and when he went back I went along 
with him and stayed with him at Oyster Bay two weeks after he 
was shot in Milwaukee ; he went to New York to make speeches 
before big mass meetings, and I went along with him to report 
what happened on those occasions, and returned to Oyster Bay and 
stayed there until election. 

Q. During that time, under the physical condition he was in, 
what can you say as to the consumption of liquor by the plaintifif, 
or not? 

A. Why, when I saw him in his bed in the hospital, of course 
he was a very sick man; there was no indication of liquor about 

145 



him at all, or anything out of the ordinary, except he looked sick, 
as any man might, after he had been shot. 

Q. And when he got to Oyster Bay? 

A. The first time I went to see him I was astonished to find that 
he had been out walking, and he came in and he seemed to be in a 
very buoyant condition, for a man who was shot, and he said the 
walk had done him good ; and he raised his arm with difficulty, and 
all that, on account of the wound, but there was not the slightest 
indication of any alcoholic indulgence at all. And when he went 
to New York, for a man who was suffering from a bullet wound 
it was perfectly amazing to see what good condition he was in, 
especially when he went under the strain of speaking at a mass 
meeting of ten thousand people twice in succession. 

Q. I ask you, during the time of your acquaintanceship with 
him while he was president, as you have described, and during the 
time you were on this trip, what do you say as to whether he could 
have got frequently drunk, or drunk at all, without your know- 
ing it? 

A. On the trip he could not possibly have taken liquor to aflfect 
him in the least degree without my knowing it. I was there to 
watch him and take note of every single action he performed that 
I could see, and also to find out what I could about rumors and 
everything else I possibly could, not in any offensive sense, but I 
was there to secure it. I was employed and paid for the purpose of 
describing his actions and manner and the efifect he had on the 
crowd, and what the people did. 

Q. For the purpose of enlightening the public ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Did you have any other experience with him during 1912, 
any other trip? 

A. No, outside of those I mentioned. 

O. I think you have practically covered it, but what I mean is 
the month's trip, the long railroad trip you mentioned? 

A. Yes. You asked me about Washington. I say I never 
noticed the slightest trace of liquor on his breath, or anything 
which would be — 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to any argument of the witness. 

Court : — The Court does not recognize any argument in the 
answer of the witness. It is true, however, that it was not respon- 
sive to any question. 

146 



Mr. Pound: — Q. At that time what was the paper that you 
were then on, the policy of the paper, as to being friendly or un- 
friendly to the plaintiff? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial to 
this case. 

Court: — It seems to me to be immaterial, Mr. Pound. If you 
care to ask the witness whether he was there for the express pur- 
pose of finding out whether Colonel Roosevelt drank or did not 
drink, or whether he was looking for just that sort of thing, you 
may do so. 

Mr, Pound: — No; I will let my friends inquire about that, if 
they want to. 

Q. What do you say from your observation of Colonel Roosevelt 
and your acquaintanceship with him, as to v^hether he is, and to 
what degree he is a consumer of liquor at all — free, medium, or 
excessive ? 

A. I never saw him take a drink at all, except at the Gridiron 
Club dinners, and then just as I have mentioned. I never heard 
in Washington of his taking any other thing, and never heard it 
reported. 

Q. Will you state to the jury what kind of liquors there were at 
the Gridiron Club dinners? 

A. Cocktails, light wine, Sauterne, and usually champagne. 

Q. As to the cocktails and Sauterne and wines, what can you 
say as to the plaintiff's consumption of them? 

A. I never saw him take anything except champagne. 

O. Now, in your individual talk with the plaintiff, have you also 
found him talking with others, if you were waiting for an audience? 

A. You mean in Washington? 

Q. Yes, in Washington, or elsewhere. 

A. In this way, in Washington I nearly always saw him alone. 
Sometimes I would go in when other people were waiting to see 
him, and he would ask me to step aside until he got rid of them, 
and in that way I would see the other people. 

Q. I ask you what you can say as to the habits of the plaintiff 
in this suit in regard to profanity? 
A. Why, he never uses it at all. 
Q. What do you say as to his use of obscenity? 

A. Why, no man would ever dare to use an obscene word in his 
presence. 

147 



CROSS-EXAMINATION 

Mr. Belden : — Q. You first became acquainted with the plain- 
tiff in 1906, you say? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That was at Washington? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That period of your acquaintance extended from 1906 until 
when? 

A. It extended from the beginning of 1906 until ]Mr. Bryan's 
campaign in the summer of 1908, and I went with Mr. Bryan. 

Q. During that time you say you saw him frequently ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you define what you mean by frequently, how many 
times a week? * 

A. It varied very greatly, for the reason that sometimes there 
were important matters pending, and I went to see him about it, 
and sometimes not. For instance, when the railroad rate regula- 
tion bill was up in Congress I saw him possibly a couple of times 
a week, and at other times I would not see him for a month at a 
time. 

Q. Those interviews, I think you have said, lasted from five 
minutes to three-quarters of an hour. Where were those interviews 
usually held? 

A. They were usually held in his room, the room in the execu- 
tive offices in the W'iiite House. 

Q. In what you would call a suite of offices in connection with 
the White House? 

A. In his own private office in that suite of offices. 

O. Was there any particular time in which you newspaper men 
would go to see him? 

A. No, there was not. On usual matters I would call up Mr. 
Loeb and ask him what time would be convenient for the president 
to see me, without regard to what the other newspaper men were 
doing, and Mr. Loeb would tell me and I would go up there; and 
that would run usually about twelve, sometimes two, three, and 
sometimes as late as five o'clock. 

O. Those interviews would come, I suppose, within the scope 
of his working hours? 

A. Oh, yes. 

148 



Q Since the summer of 1908, will you fix the time when you 
next became closely associated with him so that he was under your 
observation ? 

A. On the 2nd of September, 191 2. 
O Extending from when until when? 

A. Until the ist of October. That was during that swing 
around the circle, a month's trip. 

O. That really consisted of his trip of a month, durmg the 
month of September, 191 2? 

A. And I joined him again about two weeks later. 
Q. What period did that cover, the last-mentioned trip? 
A. From the middle of October until election day. 
Q. During the so-called swing around the circle, what arrange- 
ment was made for carrying newspaper men? 

A. There were two cars ; whenever we would go on a regular 
train or a special train, as the occasion might arise, our two cars 
would be cut off and switched onto whatever train we were gonig 
out on from that particular place. The newspaper men occupied 
one car and Colonel Roosevelt with his nephew and stenographers 
occupied the other. 

Q. I understand the testimony to be that so far as you observed 
yourself, you have never seen him drink anything but champagne, 
and then only at the Gridiron Club dinners in Washington. In the 
course of your acquaintance with him, how many Gridiron Club 
dinners did you attend? 

A. I should sav about ten. 

Q. Have you attended banquets other than the Gridiron Club 
dinners that you speak of? 

A. No. . . 

Q. Do you know about whether he keeps a stock of liquors in 
his home. Scotch whisky and rye whisky and wines, do you know 
anything about that? 

A. Why, it was a common rumor in Washington that the White 
House always kept them, under every president. 
Q. I didn't ask you about the White House. 
A. I only know it by common rumor. 
Q. I asked you about his home. 
A. I know nothing of it personally. 

Q. You don't know anything about those matters except these 
two or three Gridiron Club dinners you are talking about? 
A. Ten Gridiron Qub dinners. 

149 



O. \>ry well, ten Gridiron Club dinners ; and you don't know 
anything about his serving of liquors or the use of liquors at his 
home on these other occasions, do you? 

A. As head of the Washington Bureau of the Times, I employed 
reporters whose duty it was to find out those things and report to 
me, and I knew it. 

Q. I didn't ask you about that. 

Court: — You understand you are to testify only to your knowl- 
edge. That is not competent. 

Mr. Belden : — Q. You don't know anything about his serving 
liquor or using liquor at his home on other occasions, do you? 

A. Not of my own knowledge. 



A. W. Abele, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Where do you live? 

A. At Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. How old a man are you? 

A. Forty-five years old. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. At Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. Has that been your home all your life? 

A. With the exception of about three years, yes, sir. 

Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit, Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. I do, sir. 

O. Where did you first meet him to come in personal touch with 
him? 

A. In Chattanooga, Tennessee, if I remember right, it was in 
October, 1902. 

Q. Of course you went to the public schools in Ironton, Ohio, 
as a boy, I suppose ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. About what time did you begin to work after you got 
through school, what work did you do? 

A. As a coal miner. 

Q. How long did you work in the coal mine ? 

A. Until I was nineteen. 

O. What change then did you make in your vocation? 

A. I railroaded for three years. 

Q. In what capacity? 

A. Locomotive fireman. 

150 



Q. You say you met the plaintilT in this suit, Mr. Roosevelt, 
at Chattanooga, Tennessee; how did you happen to be there; what 
was the occasion of it? 

A. The Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen held a convention 
at that time. 

Q. On that occasion what did you see of the plaintiff? 

A. Well, sir, I made a trip with him. 

Q. Where? 

A. On the top of Lookout Mountain. 

Q. About how far is that away from Chattanooga? 

A. Well, I should judge about a mile; I don't know exactly. 

Q. How long after you had been introduced to him was it that 
you joined the party to look over Lookout Mountain? 

A. A short time ; that day. 

O. Going from wherever you started in Chattanooga to Look- 
out Mountain, how did you go? 

A. We took the incline up the mountain, and there was a car 
waiting there on the top of the mountain. 

Q. You say when you arrived at the top of the mountain there 
was a car; what do you mean by that? 

A. A street-car went around the mountain. 

Q. Towards the center, or on the outside? 

A. Just on the outside, around. 

Q. Was that street-car apparently waiting for you? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What did the plaintiff do, if anything? 

A. The conductor says, 'This way, boys," and Colonel Roose- 
velt says — he had his hat off his head — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 

Mr. Pound: — That is simply preliminary. 

Mr. Andrews : — I assume there are a good many interesting 
preliminary things, but I don't think it is proper to bring those 
things into this case. 

Court: — You cannot always tell. A question is often asked in 
order to connect up the matter and make the real answer more 
intelligent. Go on, but do not go far with it. 

Mr. Pound: — What did the plaintiff do? 

A. He had his hat off, and he says, "Come on boys," and we all 
followed him and walked around the mountain, where the street-car 
ran. 

Q. About how far? 

151 



A. I should judge about three-quarters of a mile. 

O. What followed after that, how long did you stay there? 

A. Why, we were on the mountain about an hour, I should 
judge. 

O. Then where did you go? 

A. We went down the incline back to the hotel. 

O. At that time about how long was the plaintiff in Chattanooga, 
to your best recollection ? 

A. I think a day. 

O. Did you attend, or were you present at any dinner or any- 
thing of that kind where refreshments were given ? 

A. No, sir. 

O. That was your first acquaintanceship, as I understand you, 
with the plaintiff? 

A. That was the starting of the acquaintanceship. 

O. That was your first acquaintanceship with him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Was there anything that drew you in the company of the 
plaintifif during the two days? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Andrews : — I move to strike out that testimony of what 
occurred up to that time, as having no relation whatever to any- 
thing in this case, being irrelevant and immaterial to the case. 

Court : — The purpose of the testimony, I take it, is to show 
that the witness was very close to the plaintiiT during that time. 

Mr. Andrews : — Please note an exception. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. When did you next see him? 

A. That evening about seven o'clock. 

Q. I don't care about the details, but when was the next time 
in point of time beyond that; when did you next see the plaintiff? 

A. Seven o'clock that evening. 

O. After he went away, after the two days, when was the next 
time you saw him? 

A. The next time I saw him was at Huntington, West \"irginia. 

0. When was that? 

A. I don't just recall the date of that; he made a speech there. 

O. Do you remember anything that you can locate it by? 

A. He was making a campaign speech. 

Q. How is Huntington, West Virginia, situated as to fronton? 

A. Twenty miles east. 

152 



Q. On different sides of the river? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Ironton is in what state? 

A. Ohio. 

Q. You heard his speech at Huntington? 

A. I did, sir. 

O. What time of day or night was it? 
A. In the afternoon. 

O. Did you hear him make a speech in Ironton about that tmie . 
A. No, sir, not at that time. 

Q. Now, when was that speech at Huntington, as near as you 
can tell, as to the year? 

A. Well, I don't know whether it was in 1902, or what year it 

was. 

Q. Was it a number of years ago? 

A Yes sir. 

O'. And this time you saw the plaintiff in Chattanooga was how 
long'^before the Huntington trip, which was the first of the two? 
A. I think the Chattanooga trip w^as the first one. 
O. In Chattanooga was there any talking done by the plaintiff? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. Who did he address? 
A. He addressed members of the Brotherhood of Locomotive 

Firemen. 

Q. That was in convention then? 

A "V^cs sir 

O. Whkt connection had you with his coming or going from 

the convention? 

A. I was with the committee. 

O. You were acting — 

A. As escort of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen. 

Q. You say you think Chattanooga was the first? 

A. Yes. 

O. One year, or two years? 

A. I think probably a year or two ; I am not positive. 

Q. Some such time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When did you next see him— or in reference to Huntington, 
beyond listening to his address, did you come in personal touch 
with him then? 

A. No, sir. 

153 



Q. When was the next time you saw after the Huntington 
speech ? 

A. At Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. In what year was it you saw him at Ironton, Ohio? 

A. 1912. 

Q. How did you come to see him at Ironton, Ohio; had you 
any official duties to perform in that matter? 

A. I was on the reception committee. 

Q. I will go back and clear up a little bit. How long were you 
locomotive fireman? 

A. About three years. 

Q. Then what did you turn your activities to? 

A. Then I went into the shoe business. 

Q. Have you been in the business line ever since? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And where? 

A. At Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. Do you remember what the occasion was of the plaintiff's 
visit to Ironton at the time you have mentioned as the third time 
you saw him? 

A. He was campaigning. 

Q. Was it before or after the Chicago convention? 

A. Before. 

Q. Do you know whether it was in reference to the canvass 
of the state for the delegates? 

A. It was. 

O. When was it and where was it that you actually met the 
plaintiff at Ironton, Ohio; I mean if in a hotel, or a car, or did you 
go out a little ways to meet him? 

A. I met him at the car. 

Q. The car arrived at what time, if you know as a member of 
the reception committee? 

A. About eight o'clock in the morning. 

Q. About how long was the plaintiff in Ironton? 

A. Probably thirty minutes, or thirty-five. 

O. What did he do while he was there? 

A. He addressed an audience. 

O. And at the expiration of his address, how long did he re- 
main ? 

A. He immediately went to the car. 

O. What did the car do when he got onto it? 

154 



A. As soon as he got on the car it left town. 
Q. Where did it leave for? 
A. It left for Portsmouth. 
Q. Did you accompany it? 
A. I did. 

Q. Between Ironton and Portsmouth was the train stopped? 
A. No, sir. 
Q. No addresses? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. And Portsmouth, how many miles is that away from Iron- 
ton? 

A. About twenty-eight miles. 

Q. Ironton, you say, is on the Ohio River? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where is Portsmouth, with reference to the Ohio River? 

A. On the Ohio River. 

Q. Is it southwesterly, or northwesterly, or in what direction 
from Portsmouth? 

A. Northwest, Portsmouth is northwest of Ironton. 

Q. Where were you generally on the train between Ironton and 
Portsmouth ? 

A. I was with Colonel Roosevelt and his party. 

Q. What do you mean by that, on the same train or the same 

car? 

A. The same car. 

O. What do you say to this jury as to whether or not the plain- 
tiff was within your plain sight during that trip from Ironton to 
Portsmouth ? 

A. He had not finished his breakfast when he got off at Ironton 
to make his address. After making his address he finished his 
breakfast, and he talked — 

O. Where did he have his breakfast, in the open? 

A. In the open car, and he talked to half a dozen of us boys 
going down as far as Portsmouth. 

Q. A general conversation, between the two places? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. When you got to Portsmouth — or before you got there, was 
there anybody that came down to Ironton as a sort of reception 
committee on behalf of Portsmouth, do you recall? 

A. Yes, sir ; Judge Blair was one. 

155 



Q. And there were some others, were there? 

A. Yes, sir, but — 

O. I don't care who they were, but how long was the car, as 
near as you can recollect about in Portsmouth? 

A. Probably thirty-five or forty minutes. 

Q. What did Colonel Roosevelt do in Portsmouth? 

A. He made an address. 

Q. From where? 

A. Kendall Hall. 

Q. That would be about how far away from where the car was 
on the track? 

A. Five minutes' automobile ride. 

O. In Ironton, where was the speech with reference to the car? 

A. Well, about three minutes' distance by automobile. 

Q. What was the fact in Ironton whether the local reception 
committee had him in particular charge or not, during the making 
of the speech? 

A. They did. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether there was any committee that 
kind of formed themselves as a buffer to keep the crowd back a 
little and make way? 

Mr. Andrews : — That is objected to. 

Mr. Pound : — I will put it in another way. It is leading, I 
think, myself. 

Q. What did they do in getting the plaintiff through the crowd? 

A. We had quite a strenuous time of it. 

O. Do you remember how you managed it? 

Mr. Andrews : — I don't see what relevancy that has. 

Court : — I cannot see the relevancy of that question. 

Mr. Pound : — It is explanatory a little bit of what will develop 
a little later on; and I may say to Your Honor that this man has 
been brought clear from Ohio, and he cannot stay, and I am kind of 
putting him on — 

Court : — ^You are asking permission of the Court to allow you 
to put in this testimony out of order. 

Mr. Pound: — It is anticipating just a little bit as to a question 
or two on one point, that is all, because it is going to be much more 
material a little later on : if Your Honor had read the deposition 
you would see. 

Mr. Andrew s : — There is no objection that it is out of order, 

156 



but for any purpose whatever I deny that it is competent or relevant 
or material, and I object to it. 

Court : — The Court will let you take this testimony, with the 
understanding if at the close of the trial counsel will call my atten- 
tion to this question, and if at the close of the trial this testimony 
is not fairly rebuttal, it will be stricken from the record. 

Mr. Pound : — O. Now, at Portsmouth about how long an ad- 
dress did the plaintiff make? 

A. Twenty-five minutes, probably. 

Q. Did you return with him to the car? 

A. I did. 

Q. From Portsmouth, where did you go? 

A. To Waverly. 

Q. About how far is Waverly away from Portsmouth? 

A. Thirty miles. 

Q. Were there any intermediate addresses? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. At Waverly, how long w^as the plaintiff — Before I ask you 
that, where was the address made in Waverly? 

A. From his car. 

Q. How long was he there ? 

A. Ten minutes. 

Q. From Waverley, where did you next go? 

A. Chillicothe. 

Q. And Chillicothe, about what size town is that, if you know? 

A. I should think about eighteen or nineteen thousand. 

Q. Where was the address there made? 

A. In the public square. 

Q. Including the time going from the car by automobile, or 
whatver it was, and the address and the return, about how long 
was the plaintiff in Chillicothe? 

A. I think they were there about fifty minutes. We had a little 
accident to the car. 

Q. From Chillicothe, where did you go? 

A. To Hamden. 

Q. Was there an address at Hamden? 

A. Yes, from the car. 

Q. How long did the train stop there? 

A. Ten minutes, I guess. 

Q. From Hamden, where did the train go? 

A. To Jackson. 

157 



Q. Is that in Jackson County? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Ohio? 

A. Ohio, yes, sir. 

Q. Jackson is how far from Ironton, about? 

A. The way we went, or direct? 

Q. No, direct. 

A. About forty-five miles. 

O. You are the adjoining county, are you? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And at Jackson, where was the address made? 

A. From a temporary stand erected in the street. 

(A photograph marked "For Identification 2.") 

Q. I show you this photograph and ask you whether that is a 
correct representation of the crowd and the plaintiff in the act of 
delivering the address ? 

A. Perfectly. 

Q. About how long an address did the plaintiff give on that 
occasion ? 

A. Twenty minutes, perhaps. 

Q. I ask you where that crowd is standing, in a field, or a street, 
or what? 

A. In a street, I think. 

Q. On other occasions, have you been in Jackson ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember where the Cambrian Hotel is? 

A. I do. 

O. Does it face the main street? 

A. I think so. 

Q. And across from the Cambrian Hotel on the same side is 
the court house? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Mr. Pound : — I offer this photograph in evidence. 

Court: — Is there any objection, gentlemen? 

Mr. Andrews: — There is no objection to that. He cannot take 
it from the paper. 

Court: — The photograph may be received. It is admitted in 
connection with the deposition, and also admitted separately. 

(Photograph marked "Plaintiff's Exhibit B.") 

Mr. Pound:— Q. After the address, where did the plaintiff go 
in Jackson as to going back to the car? J 

158 



A. Why, something happened to our train at Jackson, a derail- 
ment. 

Q. Just describe in a few words about the resumption of your 
journey ; how long you were delayed. 

A. Mr. Roosevelt was taken in a cab and driven round a square 
probably, or two, not to exced that, and brought back to the car. 
and by that time the car was on the rails, and we went away. 

O. Where did you go from Jackson ? 

A. To Wellston. 

(Two photographs marked "For Identification 3 and 4.") 

O. I ask you to look at this photograph marked "4," and tell 
me whether you see the plaintiflf in that picture, and whether that 
is a correct photograph of the situation at Jackson ? 

A. It is the plaintiff, but I cannot recall that meeting. 

Q. W^ell, look at that ; do you identify that by that court house, 
and tell me where that was ? 

A. That may be Wellston. I am not positive — no, I know it is 
not W'ellston, because the court house is not at Wellston. I cannot 
recall that. 

O. To recall your attention, don't you remember that from 
Hamden to Jackson, that W^ellston is on the way, about half way? 

A. No, sir. 

O. All right; as you recall it, you went to Wellston from — 

A. From Jackson to Wellston. 

O. What was done in Wellston, if anything, in the way of an 
address ? 

A. He made an address at Wellston. 

Q. From the car, or where? 

A. Xo, sir, a grandstand was erected just alongside of the track. 

O. So that that stand would be from the car about how far, 
estimating in the court room? 

A. Not any further than from here to the corner. 

Q. About fifty feet? 

A. I should judge about that; not any further. 

O. I don't suppose they had an automobile to take him over 
that short distance? 

A. Xo ; he just stepped down off the car and up onto this plat- 
form. 

O. From Wellston, where did you go? 

A. We backtracked. 

O. To where? 

159 



A. We went througli Hamden again to Athens. 

Q. Athens has the state university, hasn't it? 

A. No, sir ; Athens is a college town, but not the state university. 

Q. In addition to that, is there any other public building there? 

A. Yes, an insane institution. 

Q. About how large a town is it? 

A. I should think about twelve thousand. 

Q. Where was the address made at that point? 

A. It was made from the steps of a public building. 

Q. The court house? 

A. Probably the court house ; a public building. 

Q. Whereabouts did Colonel Roosevelt stand at the time he was 
delivering the address ? 

A. He stood on the steps of this building. 

Q. Let me ask you in regard to that — what kind of steps were 
they, were they of stone or brick, or what? 

A. Stone, if I remember right. 

Q. Was it on the steps that he walked up, or a ledge that he 
stood upon? 

A. I think he stood upon a ledge. 

O. About how high would you say from the ground? 

A. Ten or twelve feet. 

Q. That ledge was about how large, as to whether there was 
room for any more than one person to stand on it? 

A. Oh, it is quite a ledge. 

Q. Do you remember anybody being on the ledge except the 
plaintiff? 

A. Oh, there w^ere several persons on it, a crowd. 

Q. During the address? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Was he crowded considerably? 

A. Yes, as close as they could get to him. 

Q. About how long was the address there? 

A. Twenty minutes, perhaps. 

Q. And the distance of that court house away from the rail- 
road station, whether it was short or quite a ways? 

A. It took us about ten minutes, if I remember right, on a car. 

Q. You had to climb a hill to get up there? 

A. Yes, sir, we had to climb a sort of hill. 

Q. After the delivery of the speech, what was done? 

A. We got into the machines and went back to the car. 

160 



Q. Upon going into the car, what other places did you go to ? 

A. We went from there to Nelsonville, or Logan, I don't know 
which came first. 

O. At Logan was it a tail end speech, or did you go to some 
public place? 

A. It was either at Logan or Nelsonville that he spoke from 
the platform of the station house. 

O. At the other place, whichever it was? 

A. He spoke from a large veranda on the hotel ; he was on the 
second floor. 

O. From Nelsonville or Logan, where did you go? 

A. To Lancaster. 

Q. What was done in the way of making an address there? 

A. He made an address in the public square there. 

O. About how long? 

A. Twenty-five minutes, perhaps. 

Q. And Lancaster, about what size? 

A. I should judge, twelve thousand. 

O. Did he return immediately from thq address to the car? 

A. To the car. 

O. From Lancaster, where did you go? 

A. Columbus. 

O. What time was it that you reached Columbus? 

A. About six o'clock P. M. 

O. What did the plaintifif do, if he did anything, in Columbus 
that day? 

A. I left the car at Columbus about six o'clock. 

Q. That is as far as you were concerned? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What time was it you began your trip with him in the 
morning ? 

A. Eight o'clock in the morning. 

Q. So you were with him from eight o'clock to six o'clock? ; 

A. Yes. ' 

Q. Were you in the car in between stations with the plaintiff 
here any of the time? 

A. All of the time, sir. 

Q. Can you swear to this jury, or what do you say as to whether 
the plaintifif in this suit took a drink of anything in the way of 
spirituous or malt liquors upon that day while you were with him? 

A. Not a drop, sir. 

161 



Q. Where did Colonel Roosevelt have dinner? 

A. In the car. 

Q. When you left the party at Columbus had they yet had 
supper ? 

A. They were eating. 

O. Will you tell this jury from Ironton to Columbus, as to what 
the fact is, whether you personally heard every speech the plaintiff 
made? 

A. I heard every word he uttered. 

O. 1 ask you whether the plaintiff' in the slightest degree was 
under the influence of any intoxicants or narcotics, from the time 
you met him in Ironton until the time you left him at Columbus? 

A. Absolutely not. 

O. During that day, what evidence was there, on these occasions 
and on any of these speeches did he manifest of being under the 
influence of liquor or narcotics? 

A. None whatever. 

O. Do you remember any episode that took place at Wellston, 
I think it was, about the locomotives tooting, and he said he could 
not run a race with them very well? 

A. That, perhaps, was at Jackson. 

O. Do you remember something of that kind taking place, and 
do you remember anything about his — how he employed his time 
while the tooting was going on, in reference to children? 

A. I don't believe I do. 

O. All right, sir. You came into this city when? 

A. Yesterday evening. 

Q. And came from where? 

A. Ironton, Ohio. 

Q. And came direct? 

A. Direct. 

O. And you expect to leave for home just as soon as you are 
through here? 

A. I want to. 

O. You are pressed, are you? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Will you tell me what month it was that this took place, 
this day that you layed off? 

A. I think it was May 17, 1912. 

O. I will ask you, from your acquaintanceship, from the meet- 

162 



ing of the plaintiff until the present time, have you been friendly, 
or otherwise? 
A. Friendly. 

CROSS-EX^ MINATIOX. 

Mr. Andrews: — Q. You are a shoe merchant? 

A. I said that was my business after I left the firing. 

Q. Are you a shoe merchant? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. What is your business about shoes? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. Well, have you been a shoe merchant? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where? 

A. At fronton, Ohio. 

O. Running a shoe store? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What is your business now? 

A. 1 am an insurance and real estate broker. 

Q. Where? 

A. At fronton. 

Q. How long have you been an insurance agent ? 

A. About ten years. 

Q. That would take it back to 1903? 

A. Yes, sir, exactly, a part of 1903, I went into the insurance 
business. 

Q. When were you a shoe merchant? 

A. In 1892. 

O. 1902? 

A. No, sir, I said 1892. Mr. Pound's question to me was, what 
did I do after I quit firing a locomotive. 

Q. You were a shoe merchant in 1902? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What part of 1902? 

A. Well, I went in the shoe business — I was married on Decora- 
tion Day. and went into the shoe business the day following. 

Q. 1902? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Did you lease a place where you had your shoe store ? 

A. Yes, sir. 
Q. Who from? 

163 



A. A ^Ir. Ellis, a railroad man. 

Q. Just before you were a shoe merchant, what were you? 

A. I had fired a locomotive for about three years. 

Q. Locomotive firing was all before 1902, was it? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That would be back in 1901 ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you fire a locomotive in 1901 ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And you did nothing between the time you fired the loco- 
motive and when you went into the shoe business? 

A. Xo, sir. 

O. So that, you were a shoe merchant in 1902 when you met Islr. 
Roosevelt at Chattanooga, in October, 1902? 

A. I beg your pardon, sir — 1892. 

Q. 1892?' 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Oh, then I got the figures wrong. It was as far back as 
1892, then, something like twenty-one years? 

A. I will be married twenty-one years to-morrow, sir; that is 
how I can recall it. 

O. I may have been incorrect in the way I put the question. 
So back twenty years ago, or twenty-two years, you were an en- 
gineer ? 

A. A locomotive fireman. In 1891 and 1892 I was locomotive 
fireman. 

Q. \\'ell, that was back pretty nearly a quarter of a century 
ago? 

A. Twenty-one years ago. 

0. So that you mean to tell the jury that twenty-one years ago 
you met the president at this Lookout Mountain? 

A. I didn't say that, Mr. Andrews. 

Q. You said it was in 1892? 

A. I did not. 

Court: — He said he was firing in 1892. Is that right? 

A. I fired a locomotive in 1891 and 1892. I met Colonel Roose- 
velt in 1902. 

AIr. Andrew.s : — Q. Do I understand you to say you were firing 
in 1902? 

A. No, sir. 

164 



Q. Didn't you say you were firing an engine when you met Mr. 
Roosevelt ? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. You didn't mean to say that ? 

A. I didn't say that. 

Q. Didn't you say that you went down with the Locomotive 
Firemen to meet Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I did. 

Q. And didn't you mean to convey the impression that you were 
there as a locomotive fireman? 

A. I did. 

Q. You were not in that business at all at that time? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And have not been since? 

A. No, sir, but I am a member of the Locomotive Firemen 
Brotherhood to-day. 

O. You intended to convey the impression to the jury that you 
were at that time a locomotive fireman, didn't you? 

A. I don't see how that can be. I told the truth to the jury. 

Q. A\'ill you tell me whether you did not mean to convey the 
impression to the jury that you were a locomotive fireman? 

A. No, and they didn't understand it that way. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that, and move to strike it out. 

Court: — Well, we will strike it out. 

Mr. Andrews: — From that time until this you have been an 
insurance agent? 

A. No, sir. 

O. You have told the time when Mr. Roosevelt came to 
Huntington, West Virginia, which is about, I understand you, 
twenty miles away from Ironton? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. And that time, you don't just remember the date? 
A. I do not. 

O. Do you remember the fact, the occurence? 
A. I remember the occasion. 
O. There was a meeting there? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. And you were in the crowd? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How far away from the speaker? 

165 



A. Oh, perhaps as far as from here to the wall there. 
O. Yon could hear him distinctly and vigorously, I suppose? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Q. In front of him? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. Understanding all that he said, is that right? 
A. Yes, I could hear what he said. 

Q. You have given no other occurrence, as I remember it. until 
the meeting in 1912? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. And that meeting you say was in what month of 1912? 
A. I think yiay. 
Q. About what part of May? 
A. I think it was the 17th. 

O. I suppose you don't try to remember the exact date? 
A. No, sir. 

Q. But just give the best impression that you can? 
A. It was on that trip we made through the state. 
Q. Now, at the town of Jackson, where was the speech made? 

A. It was made from a stand. 

Q. Where? 

A. Alongside of the street, just alongside of the street there 
in Jackson the same as if you put up a stand here alongside of the 
street. 

O. You are acquainted in Jackson, are you? 

A. I'm acquainted in Jackson, yes, sir— not exactly the location. 

O. You have been there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. How many times? 

A. Oh, I suppose a dozen times, or more. 

O. You didn't say in your examination in chief that it was any 
part? 

A. No, sir, I did not say that. 

O. You don't know where it was, do you? 

A. Well, I can't tell you exactly, of course here ; I know where 
it was from the train. 

O. Can you tell something about it, so we can find out? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Where was it? 

A. It was in an easterly direction from the railroad track; if 
you will let me explain it. I can — 

166 



O. I want to know what part of the city it was in. 

Court: — He is endeavoring to tell you. 

Mr. Andrews :— I have not stopped him from telling me. 

Q. I ask what part of the city it was in? 

A. Let me explain how I can locate it. 

O. Tell where it was. 

A. In my visit to Jackson I would come in over the C. H. & D. 
road to Jackson, but our party with Mr. Roosevelt came in on 
another road, and came in the back of the town ; that is the reason 
I can't locate it exactly where this spot was. 

Q. Jackson is a small town? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You don't ordinarily get mixed up in a small town, do you? 

A. No, sir. 

O. I want to know where the meeting was, as near as you 

can tell ? 

A. It was near the Baltimore & Ohio railroad tracks. 

Q. I mean in the town. 

A. It was on the outskirts of the town. 

O. Do you swear that the Roosevelt meeting in Jackson was on 
the outskirts of the town? 

A. It wasn't right in the center of the town, no sir. 

Q. Was it on the outskirts of the town? 

A. It wasn't in a thickly populated part; I can tell you that; 
there wasn't many houses. 

Q. Was it on a street? 

A. That is what I said. 

Q. I am asking what the fact is? 

A. Yes, sir, it was on a street. 

O. What kind of a street ? 

A. Why, it looked like a road ; it wasnt paved. 

O. A street, or road; no pavement? 

A. No, sir. 

O. What kind of surroundings were there there— why do you 
hesitate about this, if you remember anything about it? 

A. The surroundings, I told you it was not very thickly popu- 
lated. 

Q. I want to know what kind of surroundings were around the 
place where you think you remember where the meeting was ? 

167 



A. There was such a crowd I didn't notice the surroundings. 

Q. Was it a street, or not? 

A. I told you it was a road. 

Q. I understood you to say you went to the town of Waverly? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Do you remember going there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What time of day did you get to Waverly? 

A. Well, close to ten o'clock. 

Q. Waverly, you thought, was how far from Portsmouth? 

A. I said I thought it was about thirty miles. 

O. Portsmouth is how far from Ironton? 

A. Twenty-eight miles. 

O. And the only stop between Ironton and Waverly was at 
Portsmouth, is that right? 

A. That is the only stop ; yes, sir. 

O. And that was about twenty minutes? 

A. If I remember right, I said his address was about twenty- 
five minutes at Portsmouth. 

Q. Do you remember how long his address was ? 

A. No, I don't recall the minutes. 

Q. You did give it? 

A. I said about, sir. 

O. If you didn't remember, how did you come to say that? 

A. Because his addresses were from twenty to thirty minutes, 
fifteen to thirty minutes. 

O. Where was it he made a fifteen-minute address — well, if 
you can't remember, I will pass that. 

A. Well, now, wait a minute ; it was probably ten or fifteen 
minutes at Waverly. 

O. I thought you said it was from twenty to thirty minutes ; 
you cut it down now to ten or fifteen minutes. 

A. In various places. 

O. What place ? 

A. A\'averly for one ; he spoke from the car. 

Q. You say he spoke from the car at A\'averly? 

A. He did.' 

O. How long did he speak in Portsmouth ? 

A. I said twenty or twenty-five minutes. ■ 

O. Do you remember? 

168 



A. No sir; I said twenty or twenty-five minutes. 

O. Do you remember which? 

A. I said twenty or twenty-five minutes. 

O. You are saying that, but you said a little while ago you 
couldn't remember. 

A. Not the moments, I said. 

Q. You tell this jury that it takes from eight until ten o'clock 
to go from Ironton up to Waverly, or nearly that? 

A. I didn't say that. 

O. You did say it just a little while ago? 

A. I beg your pardon, I did not. 

O. Didn't you tell me you got to Waverly about ten o'clock? 

A. I said about ten o'clock. 

Q. And the only stop you made was in Portsmouth, wasn't it? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. If you know anything about it? 

A. I think I do. 

O. Where was the speech made in Waverly? 

A. At the station, from the car. 

Q. From the car? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. From Waverly, where did you say you went? 

A. We went to Chillicothe. 

O. Where did you go from Chillicothe? 

A. To Hamden. 

O. To get to Hamden, by what road do you go? 

A. The Baltimore & Ohio, if I remember right. 

Q. Don't you know ? 

A. No, sir. 

O. You are a railroad man? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. You know the railroads? 

A. I know part of them. 

Q. Don't you know them all in that section of the country within 
thirty or forty miles of you? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And you don't know what railroads run there? 

A. I know what railroads run there, yes, sir. 

Q. You can't remember what road you went on? 

A. The B. & O., if I remember right, I said. 

O. Don't you remember? 

169 



A. The B. & O., if I remember right. 

O. I want to know if you don't remember? 

A. If the Court please, may I ask a question? Has a witness 
any prerogatives in a court of justice? 

Court : — Yes, but answer the question. 

Mr. Andrews: — Q. Do you or do you not remember that? 

A. My recollection is it was the B. & O. 

Q. The question is, do you or do you not remember? 

Mr. Pound: — I object to that. 

Court : — If you cannot remember exactly, say so. 

Mr. Andrews: — O. I want to know if you do or do not re- 
member. 

Court : — Answer the question, do you or do you not remember 
exactly the road. 

A. I have no line in my mind but the B. & O. 

Court : — \>ry well. That is an answer. 

]\Ir. Andrews: — O. Have you talked this over a good deal since 
you have been here? 

A. I have not talked, except to the attorney, Mr. Pound, about 
five minutes, since I have been here. 

O. Just five minutes ? 

A. Yes, sir ; not longer than that. 

Q. And no talk with anybody else? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Nor with Colonel Roosevelt? 

A. No, sir, not about the case. 

Q. Nor with any other person? 

A. No, sir. 

O. So that you didn't arrange and talk your route over with 
them ? 

A. No, sir. 

O. What you had to say was not written down anywhere? 

A. No, sir, absolutely. 

O. You didn't write it now? 

A. Absolutely not. 

Q. Now you say you haven't anything in your mind but the 
B. &0.? 

A. That is all. 

O. Are there other roads that run there? 

A. Run where? 

170 



Q To this point I have just been speaking about. 

\ There are one or two roads running through Chilhcothe; 
I don't know just what roads they are, other than the B. & O. and 
the N. & W. runs through there; I know that. 

Q. To go to Hamden, which way did you go? 

A On the B. &. O., if I remember right. 

Q. I know, but I am asking you about what towns did you go 

through? . . ^ ^ 

A. It is only a Httle ways; there are no towns of miportance. 

O. None at all ? 

\ None between Chillicothe and Hamden. 

q' Don't vou know that you can't get to Hamden from Chilli- 
cothe without^going through Wellston, that there is no railroad run- 
ning that way? 

A. No, I don't know it. 

Q. You don't know it? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Have you examined to see? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. You went there that day? 

A. I did. 

Q. Will you tell me how you could get there without going 

through Wellston? 

A. W^ell, we don't go through Wellston to get to Hamden. 

Q. I see. 

A. If you see, then why do you ask me? 

Q. I would like to know how you did get to Hamden on the rail- 
road, then? 

A. Bv the B. & O. 

O. But the B. & O. goes right through Wellston? 

A. It may do that, sir. 

Q. Did you go through Wellston? 

A. \ye were at Wellston after we had been to Hamden. 

Q. Did you go through Wellston to go to Hamden? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. I would like to know what railroad you got there on? 

A. I told you to the best of my recollection. 

Q. W'here did he make his speech in Hamden? 

A. From the rear of the car. 

Q. Now, from Hamden, where did you go ? 

A. W^hich way? 

171 



Q. Where did you go from Hamden ? 

A. When? 

Q. At the time you told about? 

A. If you ask me which direction we went, I will tell you. 

Q. Can't you tell it in the same way you told it before ? 

A. You didn't ask me the same question. 

Mr. Andrews : — That is all. 



I 



Mr. Pound: — Q. You said that when you were in Chattanooga 
you were there as a member of the railroad firemen? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. Were you an ofiicer or a member of the committee at that 
time ? 

A. I was a member of the order. 

Q. Are you still? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that when you quit being a railroad fireman actively, you 
did not withdraw your connection with them? 

A. I did not. 

Mr. Pound: — That is all. 



Albin Z. Blair, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : — 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Your full name? 

A. Albin Z. Blair. 

O. How old are you ? 

A. I was fifty-one the 13th of last December. 

Q. What is your business? 

A. Attorney at law by profession. 

Q. Are you now engaged in active practice of your profession? 

A. I am. 

Q. How long have you been practising law? 

A. I was admitted twenty-three years ago. 

O. I didn't ask you that. 

A. Well, I have practised twenty-three years, excepting four 
years lacking two months, that I was on the bench. 

Q. When was it you retired from the bench ? 

A. Seven years last February. 

O. Since then you have been practising law? 

A. Yes, sir. 

172 



Q. You say you were on the bench ; what position did you 
occupy ? 

A. Judge of the Common Pleas Court. 

Q. In the State of Ohio? 

A. In the Third Sub-division of the /th Judicial District of the 
State of Ohio. 

Q. Is that a court of unlimited original jurisdiction? 

A. That is the trial court where we try most of our cases. 

Q. What is the jurisdiction as to amount? 

A. Well— 

Q. Is there any limitation on it ? 

A. None, except the magistrate court has exclusive jurisdiction 
under one hundred dollars. 

Q. And the Common Pleas Court has jurisdiction from one hun- 
dred dollars to the clouds ? 

A. Yes, sir, from one hundred dollars up. 

Q. Your court corresponds with the Circuit Court here? 

A. I think you call it the Circuit Court here, yes, sir. 

Q. How long were you in charge of the Common Pleas Court? 

A. It lacked two months of nine years. 

Q. Where is your home? 

A. Portsmouth, Ohio. 

Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this case? 

A. I do. 

Q. When did you first become acquainted with him? 

A. Personally, last spring, that is, this spring, a year ago. 

Q. 1912? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you first see him on that occasion? 

A. In Portsmouth, Ohio. 

Q. Do you remember the day or the month ? 

A. In Ironton, Ohio, I will say, in place of Portsmouth, Ohio; it 
was the 17th day of May. 

Q. Wliat time of day did you see him ? 

A. I should judge it was not far from eight o'clock, between 
seven and eight o'clock in the morning. 

Q. Had he had, or did he have, while you were there, anything 
to eat, was his breakfast over? 

A. I got on the train with him at Portsmouth, Ohio, and the plain- 
tiff got up about that time ; he got up and dressed by the time we 

173 



reached Ironton. He did not get his breakfast until he left Ironton 
and was on his way back to Portsmouth. 

Q. Then his train had gone from Portsmouth before it returned 
to Ironton on that day? 

A. Yes, sir. There was a delay in Portsmouth ; that is, the train 
lay in Portsmouth some time that night previous. 

Q. Of your own knowledge, I suppose you don't know where it 
came from ? 

A. I do not. 

Q. Will you state from Ironton, where the train went? 

A. It came back to Portsmouth. 

Q. And in the intermediate distance, was there any stop made, 
that you recall ? 

A. No, sir, except at a crossing or a switch to let a train by us, 
something of that kind. 

Q. No addresses or meetings, or anything of that kind? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. Now, during the time you were in Ironton did you hear the 
plaintiff or did you know of the plaintiff' making a pubhc address to 
the citizens? 

A. I was. 

Q. Will you kindly state to us whether you were present at the 
time he made the address? 

A. I was. 

Q. And after the address — where was the address made? 

A. It was made in one of the streets, upon one of the streets of 
Ironton. 

Q. And after the address was made, where did the plaintiff' go ?' 

A. He went back to the train. 

O. And the train went where? 

A. To Portsmouth, Ohio. 

Q. How far is Portsmouth away from Ironton? 

A. About twenty-seven miles. 

Q. In Portsmouth, did the plaintiff give any address? 

A. He did. 

Q. Whereabouts was the address delivered? 

A. In Kendall Hall. 

Q. Is that near the central portion of the town? 

.\. Yes, sir. 

174 



Q. About how long an address did he make in Ironton; I don't 
suppose you held a watch on him, but I want your judgment? 

A. I should judge, fifteen or twenty minutes; possibly half an 
hour; I wouldn't be positive about that. 

Q. How long was the address, as you remember it, in Ports- 
mouth ? 

A. About thirty minutes, I think. 

Q. Now, after you came in contact with him on his car at Iron- 
ton, after he arose, from that time up to the time that you and he 
left the car at Portsmouth, will you tell the jury how much you 
were in his company? 

A. I just met him, I think, as we were entering the city limits 
of Ironton; I was only with him a few minutes until he got off the 
car, and then he came back and went to his room to change his 
clothes; that was probably half way down, or something like that, to 
Portsmouth, and I was called into the car where he was ; I was in 
another car ; and he sat down to have his breakfast, and I was with 
him from that time on until he got off the car at Portsmouth. 

Q. Will you state whether you and he indulged in a general 
conversation ? 

A. We did. 

Q. How close together were you? 

A. I w-as sitting right by him a good portion of the time when 
he was eating breakfast ; I was pretty close to him ; he turned and 
talked to me. 

Q. In sitting right by him, do you mean you were within arm's 
length of him? 

A. Yes, sir ; he had my little boy on his knee part of the time. 

Q. Who presided at the meeting in Portsmouth? 

A. I couldn't answer that question, because I didn't get into the 
hall ; I was on the outside about some duties until after he was 
speaking. 

Q. Where did you take the car that morning, did you take it at 
Portsmouth ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. So that you got upon the car while the Colonel was retired, 
and went down to Ironton? 

A. We went up the river to Ironton. 

Q. And came back as you have described? 

A. Yes, sir. 

175 



Q. After he had made the address there at Portsmouth, where 
did he go? 

A. I couldn't tell you; he went back to the train, and I don't 
know whether he went to Chillicothe or Jackson. 

Q. Did you go any further than to the train with him ? 

A. I did not go back to the train with him. 

Q. Where was it you and he parted? 

A. I saw him leave the speaking place at Sixth Street. 

Q. From the time you first saw him up to the time that he de- 
parted away from you at the speaking place on Sixth Street, that 
was about how long a period of time ? 

A. An hour and a half, or possibly a little longer. 

Q. From your personal contact with him, from his breath, from 
his actions, what do you say as to what the fact is as to whether or 
not the plaintiff in any degree manifested any evidence of inebriety? 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to as leading and suggestive. 

Court: — I think you may take the answer. 

A. There was nothing to indicate that he was intoxicated or had 
been drinking. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What Congressional District were you then in? 

A. The loth Congressional District. 

Q. What counties does that embrace? 

A. Adams, Pike, Scioto, Jackson, Lawrence, and Gallia. 

Q. You were in Adams County? 

A. I was in Scioto. 

Q. Does that abut on Jackson County? 

A. They join. 

Q. Now, sir, from your inspection, I ask you to give me your 
honest judgment of the physical condition of the plaintiff during the 
time you were in his company? 

A. He was in good physical condition ; he was a little hoarse. 

Q. I mean now, as to the consumption of liquor? 

A. There was no indication that he had any liquor. 

Q. I am going further than that. 

A. Or that he had had at any time before that. 

Q. What do you call the state you found him, sober or drunk? 

A. He was sober. 

Q. Did you ever see him again until this day after that? 

A. Not until I came here, no, sir. 

Q. When did you come here? 

A. Yesterday evening. 

176 



Q. And landed here about what time ? 

A. I was due here at 4.45, and the train was, perhaps, a few 
minutes late; I arrived here just as court adjourned. 
Q. And you are compelled to return when? 
A. I am employed in a case that is set for hearing [Monday. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Belden : — Q. Judge Blair, where do you reside ? 

A. Portsmouth, Ohio. 

Q. What part of Ohio is Portsmouth located in ? 

A. The extreme southeast part. 

Q. On the Ohio River? 

A. At the junciion of the Ohio and Scioto rivers, yes, sir. 

Q. I think you said that, prior to the 17th of May, 1912, you 
had never seen the plaintiff in this case? 

A. I had not. 

Q. And that you have not seen him since, until you came here? 

A. I have not. 

Q. On that day you met him about eight o'clock in the morning, 
is that right? 

A. It was near eight o'clock. 

O. You met him on the train as it was entering Ironton, I think 
you said? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Then you saw him for a few minutes ; about how long ? 

A. Oh, probably five minutes, until he got off the train; I saw 
him then, but I was not so close to him. 

Q. Now, wull you state once more about the hour of the day 
it was when you saw him for the last time ? 

A. Well, it was between nine-thirty and ten o'clock ; not far from 
nine-thirty, would be my judgment. 

Q. In the morning? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You went from Portsmouth to Ironton on his train ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And returned from Ironton to Portsmouth with him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And at the conclusion of his speech at Portsmouth, your con- 
nection with the day's trip ceased? 

A. Yes, sir. 

177 



Q. I think you also said that he spoke in the hall at Portsmouth? 

A. He spoke in Kendall Hall, yes, sir. 

Q. You were not present when his address was made? 

A. Not when the address was made. 

O. You didn't observe who introduced him? 

A. I did not, sir. 

Q. And that constitutes your entire connection with that matter 
on this day? 

A. Yes, sir. 



Philip Roosevelt, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

Mr. Pound: — O. Your name is Philip Roosevelt? 

A. Yes, sir, Philip James Roosevelt. 

O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Twenty-one. 

Q. What relation are you to the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. He is my father's first cousin. 

Q. Where is your home? 

A. New York City. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. New York City. 

Q. Where has been your habitat ever since you can remember 
anything about it? 

A. I have lived in New York, and out at Oyster Bay ; then I 
have been at school and college up in Massachusetts. 

Q. But your home has been at either of those two places ? 

A. Yes.' 

Q. You live at Oyster Bay in the winter? 

A. No, Oyster Bay in the summer time, and generally when I 
am on a vacation. 

Q. What is your business ? 

A. T am a newspaper man upon the Globe, a New York evening 
paper. 

Q. Will you tell us what the fact is as to how long you remember 
the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. Well, he has known me all my life; I have known him since 
I can remember. 

Q. How long have you known him ? 

A. Since I can remember. 

178 



O. At Oyster Ba}' and in New York, how close are your resi- 
dences ? 

A. At Oyster Bay my father's place surrounds his. The houses 
are within about two hundred and fifty yards, I suppose; perhaps 
it might be a quarter of a mile. 

Q. And in New York, the distance? 

A. He has no residence in New York. 

Q. When he has had? 

A. I don't remember that time. 

Q. What is the fact, when he is in New York, where does he 
stay if he stays over a day? 

A. When my grandmother was living sometimes he stayed at 
her house, and frequently stayed at our house, and he stayed at 
Dr. Lambert's house. 

O. What is the fact as to whether your family and the plaintiff's 
family are intimate, or not? 

A. My most intimate friend is his son Kermit. 

O. Your school days were passed where? 

A. I went to school at St. Mark's school, at South Borough. 
IMassachusetts. 

0. To what academy or high school did you go? 

A. Why, previous to that I went to a private school in New 
York, called the Craigie school. 

Q. From the place you have indicated, what college did you 
go to? 

A. I went to Harvard. 

Q. How many years did you spend in Harvard? 

A, The regular course is four years, but I got through in three. 
I got my A. B. last year. 

O. What is the fact, when you were a boy growing up at Oyster 
Bay. and on account of the contiguity of the houses, whether you 
saw much or little of the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I saw a great deal of him, indeed. 

O. You used to see him practically daily? 

A. I have been in swimming with him, and have seen him when 
he had no clothes on at all, and when he was fully dressed, and I 
have been very close to him and his children. 

O. You say you have been in bathing with him frequently, 
about how frequently? 

A. I have been off on camping trips from Oyster Bay ; there is 
a place called Lloyd's Neck ; we used to row out there on camping 

179 



trips, and spend the night, and sleep out on the sand without any 
covers at all with him. 

O. Who accompanied you, besides you and he, if anybody? 

A. A\'hy, I think on every trip there was always his son Kermit 
and there were some of my brothers, my brother George and my 
brother John, and generally some of the rest of us. 

Q. You say you slept out on the sand? 

A. Yes. 

Q. During the time he was president, have you visited the White 
House ? 

A. Frequently ; generally over New Year's. 

O. Can you imagine a closer degree of intimacy than your 
families have had ? 

Mr. Ani)Rew.s : — Wait a moment. 

Mr. Pound: — How much closer could you be? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Mr. Pound : — Well, I will avoid that. I guess it is plain enough, 
anyhow. 

Q. Now, then, what is the fact as to whether, at Oyster Bay as 
well as at other places, you iiave ever dined or had your meals 
there ? 

A. I have often had my meals at his house, and he has often 
been at my father's house. 

Q. During all the time, from your recollection up to the present 
time, what do you know about the consumption of liquor of any 
kind by the plaintilt, in the presence of the children? 

A. W hv, he used to consume white wine ; occasionally he would 
take some white wine, and occasionally I have seen him take a 
glass of champagne. 1 remember one occasion I saw him take two 
glasses of champagne. 

O. Do you remember going with him to Wilkes-Barre? 

A. Yes, while he was president 1 made a trip with him to 
Wilkes-Barre and to Chautauqua, New York. We were with ^Ir. 
Roosevelt and his son Kermit. and my cousin, and Mr. Loes was 
along. 

Q. During that time, what is the fact as to whether there was 
any liquor used, and if so, what was it and to what extent, what 
liquor was served ? 

A. You mean on the trip — no liquor on the trip at all. 

Q. Chautauciua, New York, has it got any particular reputa- 
tion or what is it, anyway? 

180 



A. Chautauqua, Xew York, is a place where school teachers 
and people of that character gather in the summer time in order 
to hear lectures by distinguished men, of one kind and another. 

O. Is it a sort of half country place, or city, or what is it? 

A. It is a small town. 

Q. Where do they hold the lectures? 

A. It has a big lecture hall. 

O. What is the fact in regard to the attendance, as to whether 
it is small or large? 

A. When I was there it was very large. 

Q. Can you approximate as to the number? 

A. Oh, I suppose about five or six thousand. 

Q. During last year, igi2, will you state as to whether you 
came in any special touch with the plaintiff in this suit, and if so, 
how ? 

A. I graduated from college in June, and in July, together with 
another of my cousins, handled all his private personal mail ; it was 
turned over to me because he was getting so much mail during the 
campaign ; and then I was wnth him on one of his campaign trips 
when he came up from Detroit to Duluth, and through Saginaw, 
Bay City, ^Marquette, Houghton, Calumet to Duluth, Oshkosh, 
Chicago, and then to Milwaukee, where the trip terminated. 

Q. By reason — 

A. By reason of his being shot. 

O. Tell us, during that time, where you had your headquarters 
with relation to his. 

A. On the sleeper on that trip, I think I slept right next to him; 
I slept in the observ^ation end of the car ; there was no stateroom 
for me in the car and I slept in the berth of the observation end. 

O. How about eating? 

A. I ate at the same table and sat next to him ; when we were 
in town I used to order the meals. 

O. Will you tell us, during that trip, what you can say about the 
consumption of liquor of any kind ; if there was any. tell us what 
it was ? 

A. There was a bottle of brandy in charge of one of the negro 
stewards in the bufifet, and one of the members of the party had 
a private stock of whiskey and stuff of that kind in his stateroom ; 
but Colonel Roosevelt didn't drink anything on that trip except be- 
fore he went to bed he used to have a milk punch, with a teaspoon- 
ful of brandy in it. 

181 



Q. What did it consist of, I mean by that, how much? 

A. Oh, he had a big glass of milk and one teaspoonful of 
brandy. 

Q. That is what constituted the milk punch ? 

A. That is what he called the milk punch. 

Q. Was there anything else excepting the teaspoonful of brandy 
in the milk that was intemperate ? 

A. No ; there was ice in it sometimes, I think ; I wouldn't swear 
to that whether there was ice or not, but I think there was. 

Q. Besides that trip, were you on any other trip with him during 
1912? 

A. Well, I was with him when he was taken back as an invalid 
from Chicago to New York. 

Q. Did the plaintiff address any meetings in Minnesota, or go 
down to St. Paul or Minneapolis? 

A. We were in St. Paul, but he didn't speak there ; we were in 
there very early in the morning and switched out. 

Q. Was Duluth the only place there was any speaking done in 
Minnesota? 

A. I couldn't say ; we stopped at towns, but whether they were 
in ^Minnesota or Wisconsin, I couldn't say. 

Q. After the injury was inflicted and the plaintiff was in Chi- 
cago, where were you? 

A. I was staying at the La Salle Hotel, and I was spending my 
time mostly at the Mercy Hospital. 

Q. You were in Chicago also? 

A. I was in Chicago. 

Q. It was your duty to look after the meals? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When the meals were on the car, who did the ordering? 

A. If the meals were on the car, I ordered what time they 
should be served, but the Pullman company, I believe, made the 
arrangements as to what was served. 

Q. What can you say as to yourself or any member of your 
party ordering any liquor whatsoever on that trip? 

A. I ordered no liquor on that trip. 

O. I call your attention to Duluth. How much were you in the 
company of the plaintiff that day? 

A. Oh, I suppose thirty times I was jumping in and out of his 
room. I was with him constantly in the first part of the morning, 

182 



I 



and then he went into his room, and I was jumping in and out all 
the time. 

Q. Were you also together with him at meal times? 

A. Yes, I had breakfast and luncheon and dinner with him. 

Q. Was there any address made by the plaintiff in Duluth? 

A. Three of them. 

Q. Where Avere they, and at what time ? 

A. Well, I suppose about eight o'clock — 

Q. In the morning? 

A. No, in the afternoon, he spoke to a meeting of doctors, ajid 
just said a few words; perhaps he spoke for three or four minutes; 
then he w^ent on to the main hall and he made a speech of an hour's 
length or more; and then, I think, there was an overflow meeting; 
my recollection is, at Duluth there was an overflow meeting. 

Q. Did he address that? 

A. He addressed that for about twenty minutes. 

Q. Did you hear all the speeches, whether two or three, that 
he made ? 

A. I heard all the speeches he made. If I am not mistaken, he 
spoke in West Superior, Wisconsin, in the morning before he got 
to Duluth. 

Q. What time was it when you got to Duluth that day? | 

A. We got to Duluth before noon, about eleven o'clock. 

O. How did the plaintiff spend his time from the time they 
arrived there about eleven o'clock until eight o'clock ? 

A. We went into the hotel, and there was a tremendous crowd 
gathered in the hotel, and he came down and said a few words to 
that crowd ; then he went back to his room, and dictated, as I re- 
member it, two speeches, one of which he used at Oshkosh, and 
another which he— no, he made an addition to his Oshkosh speech 
and materially changed it, and dictated a Chicago speech on the 
question of the trusts, which he used afterwards. 

Q. Up to the time of the meeting of the doctors, as you call it, 
what can you say to this jury as to what liquor, if any, the plaintiff 
had consumed? 

A. He had not touched one drop. 

Q. Where did he start that morning, where was the first speech, 
as near as you can tell? 

A. I couldn't say; some little town in Wisconsin. 

183 



Q. You said something about West Superior; tell us about the 
length of the speech that he made there? 

A. He spoke about half an hour in West Superior. 

O. West Superior would be from Duluth about how far? 

A. Well, we went from West Superior to Duluth in an automo- 
bile in about twenty-five miimtes. 

Q. Now, recurring to Duluth, was there any further thing that 
he did; was there anything in the way of entertainment done be- 
tween one and eight o'clock ? 

A. We went to this meeting after dinner; we went right down 
from the dinner to this meeting of the doctors. 

Q. About one or two o'clock? 

A. Oh, no; I am speaking of dinner, the evening meal; after 
luncheon he was still dictating these speeches. 

O. ^^^^at I am directing your attention to, after the dictation 
of the speeches which you have mentioned up to the time that you 
had your dinner? 

A. Oh, there was nothing in between — oh, I beg your pardon; 
we took an automobile trip. 

Q. About how long did that automobile ride take? 

A. Oh, an hour and a half. 

Q. Were any of the civil authorities along with you? 

A. Not that I remember. 

Q. Where did you go and stop for an hour and a half, if you 
remember ? 

A. Why, they went up in Duluth— that town has a funny forma- 
tion ; it is about one mile long and thirty miles high; we went to 
the top to get a view of the harbor of Duluth ; we were on one of 
the drives looking over the harbor ; it is a very pretty view. 

O. Did you get out of the automobile? 

A. No, we did not get out of the machine. 

Q. After you had satisfied yourselves with the view, what did 
you do as to returning to the hotel? 

A. We came back to the hotel. 

O. Did you make any stops ? 

A. We circled along the drive and back to the hotel. 

O. You didn't go back the same road? 

A. No. 

Q. Did you have any occasion at all to stop on your way ? 

A. No. 

O. You returned where? 

184 



A. We returned to the hotel; I don't know the name of the hotel. 
Mr. Andrews:— Q. The Spalding? 
A. I think so. 

Mr Pound •— Q. On that trip was there any liquor of any kind, 
spirituous or malt, consumed either by the plaintiff or anybody m 
the automobile with him? 
A. There was not a drop. 

Q Now, taking your recollection of the plaintiff in this suit 
from your earliest age, your close association with him, what can 
you say to this jury as to whether at any time you have ever per- 
ceived the slightest indication of any influence of liquor of any kmd 
upon the plaintiff ? 
A. Of course, not. 

Q \s matter of fact, what do you say about his habits ot 
speech, as to whether he is careless, or does he indulge in either pro- 
fanity 'or obscenity in your presence, did you ever hear it— yes, 
or no ? 
A. No. 

Q. What liquor have you seen him consume, either— 
Mr. Andrews:— Just a moment; that has been gone into, and 
I object to repetition. 

Mr. Pound: — I don't want to repeat this. 
(;;ourt:— The objection is overruled. Go on. 
Mr. Andrews : — Note an exception. 

A. I have seen him take a milk punch, as he calls it, and I have 
seen him take, as I say, on one occasion, two glasses of champagne, 
and I have seen him drink white wine, and I think that is all. 

Mr. Pound :— Q. Will you state what if any liquor you have 
ever seen the plaintiff drink excepting at meals ? 
A. None. 



CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Andrews :— O. You have a brother, have you ? 

A. Yes, sir, two of them. 

Q. Has one of them given his deposition in this case, do you 

know ? 

A. I think he did. 

O. Is your brother at home in the family, or is he away? 

185 



A. Why, one of my brothers is not home, and the other one is 
doing business at 30 Pine Street. My father has gone away, and he 
had to go and attend to the office. 

Q. Your brother is in the family, the one who gave his deposi- 
tion here? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. You would know, I suppose, as to the general course of 
affairs at Mr. Theodore Roosevelt's home? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Does he keep liquors in the house, in his home? 

A. I think he does, yes. 

Q. Does he keep whiskey there? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Scotch whiskey? 

A. I never saw any whiskey there, but I am pretty sure it is 
there. 

O. Red wine? 

A. I never saw any red wine, but I think it is there, too. 

Q. And Rhine wine? 

A. The same answer ; I never saw any of it, but I know it is 
there. 

Q. And white wine? 

A. Yes, white wine ; I have had some of it. 

Q. And brandy? 

A. I don't think so ; I never saw any brandy there ; I suppose it 
is in the house somewhere; the butler has charge of it. 

Q. The butler has charge of it? 

A. Surely. 

Q. Does he have Sherry? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Champagne? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Madeira? 

A. I don't think I ever saw any Madeira, but I am not sure. 

Q. You are pretty sure it is there? 

A. Yes, I think it is there. 

Q. A kind of collection of liquors? 

A. A regular gentleman's cellar. 

Q. I see. That has been so since he left the White House? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You have examined the cellar, have you ? 

186 



A. I don't know about the cellar; I never went there. 

Q. At the time you were at the White House, which, as I under- 
stand you, were numerous times ? 

A. Numerous times. 

Q. I suppose you attended some banquets there, did you not? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And they had champagne and other liquors there? 

A. Yes, we had champagne. 

O. You have attended banquets at many other places? 

A. Yes. 

O. You never attended one of those public banquets where they 
didn't have champagne, have you? 

A. Certainly not. 

Q. And they had wines of other kinds? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And whiskey? 

A. I have attended banquets where they didn't have whiskey. 

Q. Have you attended banquets where they didn't have any? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Didn't they have cocktails? 

A. At the White House? 

Q. No, at these banquets. 

A. Well, pardon me, I don't know as I just understand you; 
you mean the private banquets that I have attended in the course 
of my life? 

Q. I mean the place where you have seen Mr. Roosevelt. 

A. Oh, where he has been ? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

A. Well, now, I don't think I have been to a banquet where 
they had cocktails where he was ; I don't remember it now, no. 

Q. Now, you have been a newspaper man about how long? 

A. Since the beginning of March. 

Q. March of this year? 

A. Of this year. 

Q. Are you in the employ of newspapers here since you have 
been here? 

A. My salary is still running on. 

O. Have you performed some duties for the newspapers ? 
A. I have sent them stories, yes. 

187 



O. Before Mr. Roosevelt went on the witness stand you knew 
of the fact that he was to go on the stand, didn't you? 

A. Yes. 

O. And you wrote up and sent out his testimony before it was 
given on the witness stand? 

A. Xo. 

O. Was it to your knowledge sent out and all prepared in 
writing ? 

A. I think so, yes. 

O. Before the time he went on the witness stand? 

A. Yes: as I understand it he made up a statement for the use 
of his lawyers, which was passed around for the guidance of the 
press men. 

O. Was that not prepared in New York before ]\Ir. Roosevelt 
took the witness stand? 

A. Not as to my paper. 

]Mr. Pound: — I object to that as entirely immaterial. 

Court: — I cannot see the materiality of that, Mr. Andrews. 

Mr. Andrews : — I think we are entitled to it. 

Court : — I am waiting for a reason why you are entitled to it. 

Mr. Andrews: — I don't care to go into a discussion of it. 

Court : — The objection will be sustained. 

Mr. Andrews : — I except. 

O. Has your statement been made up in writing? 

A. Yes. ' 

O. I notice that Mr. Pound was reading from something as he 
examined you. Was that the statement, so far as you know ? 

A. I don't know myself of his having given Mr. Pound a state- 
ment, onlv that he might know what to examine them about. 

O. In writing? 

A. Yes, dictated to a stenographer outside. 

O. How long ago was that statement dictated? 

A. Day before yesterday. 

O. Have you never written one before? 

A. No. 

O. At any time? 

A. No, never. I was expecting to give a deposition at one time 
when I thought it would be impossible for me to come out here, 
but I did not do so. 

O. Were you not at the meeting at the Outlook office in New 
York where signed statements were taken? 

188 



A. I was at the meeting, yes, but as I have explained that I 
would be able to come out here, and they took no signed statement 
from me. 

O. There was a meeting at the Outlook office of some fifteen 
people, was there not? 

A. I didn't see more than three or four. 

O. Mr. Albert Shaw? 

A. I didn't see him ; he was not there when I was there, I don't 
think ; he may have been, but I don't think so. 

Q. They have several rooms ? 

A. I can name you the people that were there. 

O. Was Mr. Roosevelt's butler there? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Were you in the same room where he was? 

A. Yes. 

O. When he gave his statement in writing? 

A. No, I was not there when he gave his statement ; they let 
me go when we found that I was not going to give a deposition. 

O. You were where you could see the same people that he 
could see? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. Andrews : — I think that is all. 



]Mr. Pound : — O. What is the fact, by reason of your associa- 
tion with the plaintiff in this suit, whether you know whether a 
great many or a few visitors go to his house? 

A. Oh, there are a great many. 

O. What is the fact as to whether he entertains them to 
luncheons very frequently, as well as seeing them personally? 

A. Oh, yes. 

O. What is the course about the use of liquor at dinner? 

A. Why, generally there is liquor; that is to say, there is some 
kind of wine ; one kind of wine is served. 

O. Is it pressed on anybody? 

A. Never. 

O. They talk about the meeting in the Outlook office. Do you 
know who the people were brougt there to see, if anybody? 

A. No; I received a telephone message saying they would like 
to see me at the Outlook office ; I came down there and stayed per- 
haps twenty minutes and went away again. 

189 



Edwin Emerson, upon affirmation on behalf of the plaintiff, 
testified as follows : 

Mr. Pound: — O. What is your name? 

A. Edwin Emerson. 

Q. Where do you live? 

A. New York City. 

Q. Where were you born ? 

A. I was born in Dresden, Saxony. 

O. In what year? 

A. 1869. 

O. How long did you live in Dresden? 

A. About a year and a half. 

Q. And then what became of you, where were you taken to? 

A. I was taken to Munich, Bavaria. 

O. How long were you in the Germanic Empire in your boy- 
hood ? 

A. Until I was sixteen, but I came to the United States in 
between as a boy, several times. 

O. Your parents, had they been in America before your birth? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. They were American citizens? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did they return during your childhood to America? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did they live during the time of your boyhood in 
the United States, what State did they live in? 

A. My father was a New Yorker, and my mother was a Penn- 
sylvanian, and they lived in Pennsylvania and in New York. 

O. You received your education where? 

A. In Europe and in America. 

Q. What have you done in the way of attending educational 
institutions, after you arrived in America, after you were sixteen 
years old? 

A. I went to Ohio and studied at Miami University. 

O. How long were you at Miami University? 

A. One year. 

O. And that is located where? 

A. Oxford, Ohio. 

O. From the university in Oxford, where did you go? 

A. I went out West to Colorado. 

O. Then did that end your college career? 

190 



t 



A. No, I went afterwards to Harvard College. 

Q. In what years were you at Harvard? 

A. 1889, 1890 and 1891. 

Q. Did you take a degree? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Of what? 

A. Bachelor of Arts. 

Q. What did you do after you had graduated and assumed the 
duties of manhood, in the way of working? 

A. I went to Europe and became a correspondent of American 
papers. 

Q. How long did you remain in that business as a corre- 
spondent ? 

A. I am still a correspondent. 

Q. But of a foreign correspondent? 

A. Six months. 

Q. Then what? 

A. I returned to New York. 

Q. Has America been your home since then? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. What have you done in the way of newspaper work or edi- 
torial work or anything of that kind generally, since? 

A. Well, I earned my living at writing. 

Q. Are you an author? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. When did you first become acquainted, if at all, with the 
plaintiff in this case? 

A. In 1891. 

Q. Where did you get acquainted with him? 

A. In Washington. 

O. During the time that he was president of the Police Com- 
mission did you see him frequently? 

A. I saw him frequently. 

Q. At that time what department of newspaper work were you 
engaged in? 

A. I was police reporter. 

Q. On what? 

A. On the New York Evening Post. 

Q. During the time that he was president of the New York 
Police Commission how much did you see of the plaintiff in the 
suit? 

191 



A. I saw him over and over again. 

Q. Judging by days or weeks, can you tell me how frequently 
you would see him? 

A. If I was working at Police headquarters I would see him 
every day or so. 

O. Whenever your business took you to Police headquarters you 
would see him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. You say the next you saw him was in Washington? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What position had he been entrusted with? 

A. He was Assistant Secretary of the Navy. 

O. Do you know when he terminated his services as Assistant 
Secretary of the Navy? 

A. Yes, in 1898. 

O. What did you do then? 

A. What did I do? 

O. Yes. did you do woodchopping, or what? 

A. I went to San Antonio, Texas, and w^as mustered in with 
the Rough Riders regiment. 

O. Were you one of them? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. How long were you one of his men? 

A. As long as the war was in existence. 

O. When w-ere you mustered out? 

A. In September, 1898. 

O. Where? 

A. ]\Iontauk Point, New York. 

O. During the time you were a soldier, one of the Rough Riders, 
will you tell me whether you were brought in touch with Colonel 
Roosevelt at all ? 

A. Yes, sir, I was brought in touch with him right along. 

O. What did you have to do with that he had anything to do 
with ? 

A. I was detailed for duty as his field secretary at regimental 
headquarters, and when he was promoted to acting brigadier, at 
brigade headquarters. 

O. \\'ill you tell us how close you w^ould come in contact with 
him in eating and sleeping? 

A. The headquarters consisted of a tent, and I was in the same 

192 



tent with him and worked for him and under him every day, from 
early reveille in the morning until taps sounded at night, and some- 
times later. 

O. Where did Colonel Roosevelt sleep? 
A. He slept right there in that tent. 
Q. Where were you sleeping? 
A. Sleeping in my tent. 
O. How far away was that? 

A. Oh, some few rods, and sometimes I slept there at head- 
quarters, when it got very late. 

Q. Of course the jury know all about taps and reveille, but I 
would like to have you tell me as to the hours, about what time you 
began your work? 

A. About six o'clock in the morning. 

Q. What time would it usually terminate ; how late was it when 
you got through, at the latest? 
A. We never got quite through. 
O. When you quit work, anyhow? 

A. Sometimes nine, sometimes ten, sometimes midnight, and 
sometimes two or three in the morning. 

O. Were you with the plaintiff at all when he was in the service? 
A. Yes, I served in the regiment as a trooper. 
Q. During the time you were in the engagement, how close 
would you be to the plaintiff in this suit? 
jVIr. Andrews: — That is objected to. 
Court: — You may state. 
Mr. Andrews: — I take an exception. 
Mr. Pound : — I mean in feet ? 
A. Which engagement? 

Q. Either of them, or any of them, how close did you come to 
him; how far would you be away? 
A. It depended ; we were moving. 

Mr. Andrews: — We make the same objection, and take an ex- 
ception. ' 
A. I was in sight of him; sometimes I would be quite close to 
him, and at other times a distance off. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Now, I want to ask you after you were 
mustered out at ]Montauk Point and up to the present time, have 
you been in the employ, or brought in touch with the plaintiff, ex- 
cepting, of course, as correspondent? 
A. I have not been in his employ. 

193 



Q. How much have you seen of him since? 

A. I have seen him frequently right along. 

O. From the time you were mustered into the United States 
service, up to the time you were mustered out, that would include a 
period of how long? 

A. It was about four or five months. I started May 12th, and 
was mustered out September i6th, I think, in the middle of Sep- 
tember. 

Q. During that time, will you tell this jury what if any liquor 
Colonel Roosevelt, to your observation, made use of? 

A. I never saw him drink any intoxicating liquors during the 
time when I was a Rough Rider. 

O. What liquor did you see him make use of; tell me what it 
is, and we will draw the conclusion whether it was intoxicating 
or not? 

A. Coffee, black coffee and water. 

Q. Did you ever see him drink wines even, during that time ? 

A. No ; there was no wine. 

Q. Well, all right, then ; he couldn't drink it. From that time, 
from the time that you were mustered out, up to the present time, 
from your observation of him, what can you say as to whether you 
ever saw him in the slightest degree under the influence of liquor 
of any kind? 

A. I have never seen Mr. Roosevelt under the influence of liquor 

in any way. 

Q. How long have you been in the city here, I mean Marquette, 

when did you get here ? 

A. Wednesday morning, Wednesday forenoon. 

Q. Yesterday morning? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you come from here, where have you been lately ? 

A. I got on the train at New York City. 

Q. Have you been in Mexico? 

A. Yes, sir, frequently. 

Q. How long ago? 

A. I was there this month; I just came from Mexico. 

Q. By way of New York? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How long were you in Mexico? 

A. This last time ? 

Q. Yes, this last time. 

194 



A. February, March, April, May; I left Mexico on May 17th. 

Q. What part of ^lexico were you in, north, south, east, or 
west ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — At present I am unable to see the materiality of it. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. I ask you this question, whether during the 
time that you were a member of the regiment of which the plaintiff 
was either lieutenant-colonel or colonel, or general, was it possible 
that he could have gotten drunk frequently, and you not know it? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to the question. The witness is asked 
now for a conclusion, which the jury is put here to arrive at. I 
object to it as immaterial and irrelevant. 

Court : — I think I prefer that you inquire of the witness what 
was the longest period of time that Colonel Roosevelt was absent 
from his sight. 

Mr. Pound : — Very well. I will act on that suggestion. 

O. During that time, while you were his secretary, as you call 
it, or I call it, what would be the longest time that you were absent 
from the plaintiff's sight? 

A. At night while he was sleeping, or at times when he was 
called away from headquarters. 

Q. When he was at headquarters during the time you were 
working together, how long a period of time would he be away, that 
you would not know where he was, or he was not in your sight? 

A. About an hour, or perhaps an hour and a half. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Andrews: — O. You were mustered out at Montauk Point? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. That was how many years ago? 

A. Fifteen years ago — sixteen years. 

Mr. Andrews : — That is all. 



Gifford Pinchot, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What is your full name? 

A. Gifford Pinchot. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. Simsbury, Connecticut. 

195 



O. And at the present time, of what State are you a resident? 
A. I am a citizen of Pennsylvania. 
Q. What is your business? 
A. Forester. 

O. From the time of your birth how long did you reside with 
your family in Connecticut? 
A. A very short time. 

Q. Then where were you removed with the family? 
A. The family removed to New York. 

Q. Did New^ York remain your home then up to the time of 
your manhood ? 

A. I went to school ; I went from home to school, and after- 
wardswards went to New Haven. 
Q. But your parents? 
A. They remained in New York. 
O. Of course that was your home? 
A. It was my home. 

Q. In obtaining your education did you obtain it all in the State 
of New York ? 

A. No, I went to school in France for a time when my family 
was abroad, and then at Exeter, New Hampshire, and afterwards at 
New Haven. Connecticut. 

Q. What did you attend in New Haven. Connecticut? 
A. Yale College. 

O. How^ many years were you in attendance upon Yale College ? 
A. Four years. 
Q. Did you take a degree? 
A. Yes. 

O. What was it? 
A. Bachelor of Arts. 

Q. After graduation at Yale College will you tell the jury what 
you turned your attention to to make a living, if anything? 

A. I took up the profession of forestry, and went abroad to 
study that again about a year, and then came back and after study- 
ing it in this country for a year or two, I went into the practice of 
my profession for the United States, and have continued the pro- 
fession from that time to the present. 

Q. Was there a time when you became connected with the 
United States Government in reference to your particular work? 
A. Yes, I entered the United States Government service in 1898. 
Q. What division? 

196 



A. Qiief of the division of forestry, in the United States 

Forestry Service. 

Q. How long did you remain connected with that division? 

A. About twelve years. 

O. Then you ceased? 

A. Then I was dismissed, yes, sir. 

Q. What time was it you became acquainted with the plamtiff 

in this case? 

A. About twenty years ago, in Washington. 

Q. And at that time, so that we can identify it, what was he 

doing? 

A. He was a member of the Civil Service Commission. 

O. During the time you became acquainted with him and he 
was~connected with the Civil Service Commission, how frequently 
did you see him? 

A. Very rarely ; not more than once or twice. 

Q. Did there come a time when you saw him more frequently? 

A. Yes, sir, I saw him more frequently while he was Governor 
of New York, before he became president. 

O. And after his governorship of New York, and during his 
office as president of the United States, what was the fact as to 
whether you saw him frequently or not ? 

A. I saw him very frequently. 

O. When was the time that you and he talked over the matter 
andleemed to be in accord with regard to the importance of this 

work ? 

A. It was as soon as he became president, before he had even 
moved into the White House, when he came to Washington and 
stayed at the house of his sister, I called upon him with a friend of 
mine in relation to the matter of conservation, and from that time 
on I saw a great deal of him. 

Q. By whose appointment were you first appointed to the 

forestry service? 

A. By appointment of President McKinley. 

Q. How long had McKinley been president when you were 

appointed ? 

A. About two years, my recollection is : a little more than two 

years. 

Q. Of course you remained with him during the rest of his 
administration until the time of his untimely death? 

A. Yes. 

197 



O. During the time the plaintifif was president, was there any 
part of that time that you were not connected with the same de- 
partment ? 

A. No, I was connected with the department throughout his 
administration. 

O. How long, during the term of his successor, were you still 
with the department? 

A. A little more than half a year. 

O. Can you tell us how frequently you would see him as presi- 
dent of the United States, in reference to the work of your depart- 
ment, and for what periods of time? 

A. I saw him very often, for I had a good many ditterent kinds 
of business with him. 

O. I don't want the details, but what different kinds of business 
necessarily would bring you in contact with him? 

A. The forestry work, the work of the reclamation service, a 
good deal of which was done through me, the work of a commission, 
which was reorganizing the scientific work of the government, the 
work under the commission which was reforming the pul)lic land 
laws, and studying the conditions, under the commission studying 
the waterways in all their relations, including water-powers, under 
the National Conservation Commission, dealing with the whole sub- 
ject of natural resources. 

O. Natural resources in what respect ? 

A. For the purpose of saving them and preventing waste, timber 
and coal, and water-power, and streams, and so on. 

O. What is the fact as to whether these subjects needed some 
time for discussion? 

A. The whole conseiwation jiolicy, including the different sub- 
jects of which T have spoken, was comparatively new. Little had 
been done by any previous administration, and a great deal of work 
had to be done, and many plans had to be made ; the result was 
that T saw the president very frequently. 

O. What is the fact as to whether when you had conceived a 
plan, whether you submitted that in detail for the approval of the 
president, or not? 

A. It was always necessary to submit it for the approval of the 
president. 

O. In submitting all the details in regard to that matter, would 
it be a matter that could be summarily disposed of, or would it take 
a long time? 

198 



A. No, I had many long consultations with him, and all times 
of day. 

O. Xow, have you ever seen the plaintiff in this case at any 
other place or times than when he was president of the United 
States ? 

A. Yes, I saw him when he ceased to be president of the United 
States. 

O. What is the fact as to whether you have ever been in his 
company since for any length of time? 

A. I have been in his company times since, both in his home and 
away from home. 

O. Have you been awav with him on any trips ? 

A. Yes. 

O. How long is the longest time that you recall that you have 
been in his company on one trip ? 

A. I should think three or four days. 

O. Give us the trip. 

A. The trip which Mr. Roosevelt made West, going first to 
Cheyenne, and to Denver; I joined him at Denver; I was at Denver 
with him for part of two days, and was wnth him in his private car 
at Osawatomie, Kansas, where he made a speech, and from there — 

O. Were you there and knew^ of his making that Osawatomie 
speech ? 

A. I was. 

O. And from Osawatomie, where did you go? 

A. We went to Lawrence, Kansas. 

O. What happened there? 

A. There Governor Stubbs gave a dinner, and from there we 
went to Kansas City, Missouri. 

O. Did you go still further after reaching there? 

A. Xo, I left the party at Kansas City. 

O. Now, just briefly tell the Court any other place you have 
been with him when he was on a speaking trip ? 

A. I was with him again that same year when he came to St. 
Paul at the National Conservation Congress. 

O. How long were you there in attendance on that congress? 

A. My recollection is not clear, but I think parts of two days. 

Q. Any other place? 

A. Yes, I met him at various times during his campaign trips. 

O. At the time you met him in Colorado, at Denver, and went 

199 



with him from Denver to Osawatomie, did you go in different cars ? 

A. No, in the same car. 

O. Were you observant of him during the time you were upon 
those trips, and between those stations ? 

A. I was, and I should hke, if I may, give the reason why I 
always observed him with great care. 

O. I am coming to that. You mentioned St. Paul, and Denver, 
Colorado ; were there any other trips that you have made in the last 
two years? 

A. I remember none at present. 

O. Now, I ask you as to what the fact is as to whether you 
have taken any meals together? 

A. Yes, constantly, frequently. 

Q. Has he ever been to your home? 

A. Yes. 

O. You have already said you have been to his? 

A. Quite often. 

O. Both his official home and his private residence at Oyster 
Bay, am I right about that? 
'a. Yes. 

O. Will you kindly tell the jury whether you had any occasion 
or whether you did observe Mr. Roosevelt when you came in per- 
sonal contact with him, keenly and closely, or not? 

A. I have always been — 

O. No, just yes, or no? 

A. Yes, I have. 

O. Now, tell me why. 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 

Court: — I will give you an exception. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Kindly answer why. 

A. The reason I observed his particular character was, I have 
always been specially interested in questions of efficiency, why a 
particular man was able to do a great deal of work, and if so, how 
he lived, how he ate, and how he drank, and whether he slept much, 
and so on ; and I never in my life met any man who could do as 
much work as Colonel Roosevelt. 

Q. Is that why you kept your eye on him? 

A. Yes. 

Q. From your observation, I ask you what you can say, from 
your acquaintanceship with the plaintiff in this case, as to whether 

200 



he uses any spirituous or malt liquors or not, and if so, to what 
extent ? 

A. Yes, I have seen him occasionally drink a glass of wine. 
Once, during the seven and a half years I was with him in Washing- 
ton, I saw him drink either the whole or a part of a mint julep ; I 
have seen him drink a few times a glass of champagne at the table, 
and also a few times drink some light wine or Apollinaris water, 
after hard exercise. 

Q. \\'hat do you say as to whether or not at any time in your 
life during your acquaintanceship with him, you ever saw the plain- 
tiff in this suit in the least degree under the influence of liquor? 

A. Never. 

Q. How early in the morning have you seen the plaintiff in the 
discharge of his duties ? 

A. Before breakfast in the morning. 

O. How late at night have you seen him? 

A. Until after midnight. 

Q. I ask you what the habit of the plaintiff is as to cleanliness 
of speech, as to whether you ever heard him indulge in any pro- 
fanity or obscenity? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Now. have you attended on any occasion any public dinners 
that the plaintiff' either gave as president of the United States, or 
attended in anywnse? 

A. Many. 

Q. Will you state as to the conduct of the plaintiff in reference 
to the use of liquor upon those occasions, if it is different from 
what you have already said? 

A. It is in accord with what I have already said ; his use of 
liquor on those occasions was always very strictly temperate. 

Q. You say you have visited his home since he has gone out of 
the presidential office, at Oyster Bay, and been with him there? 

A. Yes. 

O. Have you been the only guest, or have you been with other 
guests ? 

A. Both. 

Q. What has been the practice, as you have observed, in refer- 
ence to the serving of wine at dinner when there were guests ? 

A. Sometimes there would be sherry or some light wine. I 

201 



think I have never been with liim at Oyster Bay where there was 
champagne on the table. Otherwise nothing. 

O. Have you had breakfast or supper with him? 

A. Frequently. 

O. Tell the jury, at breakfast or supper, what was the extent 
of his indulgence in any kind of liquor. 

A. None at all. 

O. Will you tell the jury as to whether in between meals the 
plaintiff in this case indulges in the use of liquor at all, or not? 

A. I have never seen him drink anything whatever between 
meals, except that one glass of mint julep about which I spoke, 
and once or twice perhaps some light wine in water. Otherwise 
nothing. 

O. Have you ever been invited to these Gridiron Club dinners ? 

A. Yes. 

O. How many dinners have you attended, in round numbers, as 
near as you can remember, at the Gridiron Club? 

A. ( )nly one. 

Q. Was the plaintiff there upon that occasion? 

A. He was. 

O. Did you observe to what extent he indulged in the use of 
liquor upon that occasion? 

A. I made no observation that showed anything different from 
the usual custom. 

O. These Gridiron dinners, outside of being a pretty good place 
to have a meal, is it any different from any other banquet, excepting 
that it has perhaps more speeches and other things take place? 

A. Otherwise, it is just the same. 

O. What can you say wdiether in your judgment the plaintiff 
in this suit could have been in the habit of getting drunk, and that 
quite frequently, without your knowing it? 

A. My judgment is that it would have been absolutely im- 
possible for him to have been a heavy drinker, in accordance with 
the question, without my knowing it. 

O. I ask you whether you have seen other men that drank? 

A. I have. 

Q. You have seen men who have gone out upon debauches, have 
you not? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that, and ask that it be stricken out. 

Court : — I am not satisfied that you may approach the matter in 

202 



that way. I think I will sustain the objection to that question, and 
you may, if you see fit, ascertain whether or not he is competent 
to judge. 

]Mr. Pound: — Q. I ask you this question, whether or not at 
any time you have seen any evidence whatsoever upon the pkiintiff 
of a recovery from a debauch? 

Mr. Andrews : — Wait a minute. I think we have a right to the 
facts and not to the conclusion. I object to this as incompetent, 
irrelevant and immaterial. 

Court: — It seems to the Court that the question calls for a 
statement of fact and not an opinion. 

Mr. Andrews: — Let it go. I withdraw the objection. 

Court : — Very well. Take the answer. 

A. I have never seen the plaintiff with any such evidence ui)on 
him whatsoever. 

^1r. Pound: — Q. What can you say, not only during the seven 
and a half years of your official connection with him, but since, 
whether or not when you have come in touch with him he was an 
absolutely sober man and temperate, or the reverse? 

A. He was always absolutely sober and temperate and in good 
physical condition. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Belden : — O. You received your first appointment in 
Washington from President >\IcKinley, I think you have said ? 

A. I did. 

O. Was that for a definite term? 

A. It was not. 

O. You continued to hold that position during tb.e administra- 
tion of Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I did. 

O. Where did you reside in Washington with reference to the 
White House? 

A. I resided about six blocks from the White House. 

O. W'here was your office, your official office with reference to 
the White House? 

A. It was about six or seven blocks in another direction from 
the White House. 

Q. In what building? 

A. In the Atlantic building. 

203 



O. How many employes did you have under your direction in 
that work? 

A. When I entered the work under President McKinley I had 
ten. When I left it. something over three thousand. 

O. You may state whether or not the management of this work 
took up the greater part of your time. 

A. In the early part of my work it did; later, some time was 
given to other work than the work of the forestry service. 

Q. So you were just as busy in the latter period you speak of, 
but you covered other work also, is that correct? 

A. Yes. 

Q. I will ask you to state whether or not your duties called you 
away from Washington from time to time? 

A. They did. 

Q. Were you away from Washington very much of the time? 

A. I was away from Washington mainly during the summer. 

O. Were those for long absences or short absences ? 

A. Usually for a month or two at a time. 

O. W^as that true of every summer during your work? 

A. It would not be true exactly ; these absences came at irregular 
times, depending upon whether Congress was in session, and so on. 

Q. During the rest of the year did your duties and your work 
call you away from Washington from time to time? 

A. Occasionally. 

O. How long would you be absent on those occasions? 

A. \'arying lengths of time; usually short. 

O. You have stated that you saw the plaintiff frequently, I 
think ? 

A. I did. 

O. During the time that he was in Washington. What do you 
mean by frequently ? 

A. I mean that there were weeks when I saw him frequently, 
saw him every day. and sometimes several times a day. 

O. You mean that was true of the entire time you were in 
Washington ? 

A. That there were now and then weeks of which tiiat was true. 

O. How about the rest of the time? 

A. The rest of the time I may say twice a week or three times, 
or occasionally only once a week ; that would be rare, however. 

Q. And among these visits, among the occasions when you went 

204 



to see him were connected, I think you have said, with your official 
work? 

A. I saw him both in work and in play. 

Q. After he left the White House there were longer periods 
when you didn't see him at all, were there not? 

A. There were. 

O. What is your place of residence? 

A. My place of residence is in Pennsylvania; my place of busi- 
ness is in Washington. 

O. What place in Pennsylvania do you reside? 

A. Milford, Pike County, Pennsylvania. 

Q. How far is that from New York? 

A. About two hours and a half by rail. 

O. You have not been on any business trips about the country 
whatever during the last two years, I think you have said? 

A. No, I said I had. 

Q. The last two years ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When was that Denver trip, what year? 

A. It was in 1910. 

Q. That would be three years ago, wouldn't it ? 

A. You are right. 

Q. So that in the last two years you have not been with him on 
any business trips about the country? 

A. No, I met him at times on his trips during the last two years. 

Q. What I mean to say, is you haven't traveled with him on any 
of his trips about the country in the last two years? 

A. You mean on the same train ? 

Q. Oh, no, I mean to accompany him on his long trips about the 
country ? 

A. No, I have not. 

Q. How long were you with him in connection with his trip to 
St. Paul at the time of the conservation congress? 

A. I was with him on that trip, a part of the same trip for about 
three or four days, including his time in Denver and Osawatomie, 
and parts of two days or parts of three, I am not sure which, in 
St. Paul. 

Q. You have testified to the use of liquor in his home; I will 
ask you to state whether or not — 

Mr. Pound : — I would like to make an objection to that. 

205 



Mr. Belden : — If I have incorrectly quoted you, you will cor- 
rect it. 

J\Ir. Pound : — My understanding was that the term "liquor" 
does not include light wine or champagne. 

Mr. Belden : — \'ery well. I will amend my question so as to 
cover both wines and liquors. 

O. You have testified to the use of wine in his home, have you 
not? 

A. I have. 

O. Will you tell this jury the different kinds of wines you have 
seen served in his home? 

A. To the best of my recollection I have seen served in his 
home, a light wine called Sauterne, sherry, and possibly Madeira. I 
have no recollection of seeing any claret served in his home, and on 
one occasion only I have seen champagne served in his home, so far 
as I can recall. This, I understand, does not refer to the White 
House. 

O. That is correct. Now, I will ask you if it is not true that 
whiskey, both Scotch whiskey and rye whiskey, is kept and served 
in his home? 

A. Not to my knowledge. 

O. You have never seen it? 

A. Not to my recollection. 

O. It was kept and served in the White House when he occu- 
pied the position of president, was it not? 

A. I have occasionally seen some one who did not dring cham- 
pagne at a dinner in the White House, offered whiskey, but whether 
Scotch whiskey or rye whiskey, I do not know. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Isn't there any corn whiskey now? 

Court : — Well, that is not necessary, Mr. Pound. 

Mr. Belden : — That is all. 



Lawrence Abbott, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Give us your full name, please. 

A. Lawrence T. Abbott. 

O. And you are a resident of where? 

A. Cornwall, Orange County, New York. 

O. How long have you been a resident of New York State? 

A. Thirty years. 

206 



Q. How old a gentleman are you ? 
A.^ifty-four. 
Q. You were born where? 
A. Brooklyn, New York. 

Q. And if you have lived outside of the State of New York as 
a resident, tell me when it was. 

A. Do you mean my legal residence outside ? 
Q. Yes. 

A. I have never had any legal residence outside of the State of 
New York. 

O. In your school days did you get your education in the city 
of New York altogether? 

A. Why, part of it in New York and part of it in the State of 
Massachusetts. 

Q. Where did you receive your academic education? 

A. At Amherst College, in Massachusetts. 

Q. Are you a graduate of Amherst? 

A. I am. 

Q. What degree did you get? 

A. A.B. 

O. After your graduation, what did you devote your atten- 
tion to ? 

A. Journalism. 

O. Have you followed that up to the present time? 

A. I have. 

Q. Are you connected now with anything in the way of 
journalism ? 

A. I am president of the Outlook Company,, which publishes the 
Outlook, a newspaper of which Mr. Roosevelt is one of the editors. 

O. And thereby you have come in contact with Mr. Roosevelt ? 

A. I first saw Mr. Roosevelt in 1886, when he was Republican 
candidate for mayor of the city of New York, and supported and 
voted for him in that election, and followed his career with special 
interest ever since. I met him first in 1895, when he was police 
commissioner, and when at his request Jacob Riis took me down to 
his office to make a complaint of intoxication against a policeman 
on my beat ; I knew him slightly as vice-president, better as presi- 
dent, and since the spring of 1910 I have known him as intimately 
as I have known any man in the world outside of the members of 
my own family. 

O. Have you ever dined with him? 

207 



A. I have lunched and dined with him and breakfasted with him 
a number of times ; many times, over and over again. 

O. Where, as to your homes and business places? 

A. At his own home, and in business association. More 
especially in the spring of 1910, at his invitation, I joined him at 
Khartum in Africa, and journeyed back with him from Khartum 
to New York, being wath him from March 14th until June i8th, 
I think was the date, every day from morning until nearly midnight, 
with the exception of about a week of that time. 

Q. What can you say from your personal knowledge of the 
plaintiff in this suit as to his indulgence to excess in liquors, either 
spirituous or malt? 

A. Why, I can say that he never indulges to excess in liquors. 

O. Will you state what, if anything, you have ever seen him 
indulge in the use of, in the way of liquor? 

A. During my trip wnth him through Africa and Egypt — and 
especially I had charge of all his money and paid all his bills, and 
kept a little single entry ledger account of every expense, knowing 
what he expended in every particular : breakfasted with him, dined 
with him, lunched with him, on railroad trains, steamers, and at 
hotels, and at some great State dinners in Europe, so that I know 
during that three months exactly what his habits were. 

O. What did he do in the way of drinking liquor? 

A. He didn't drink liquor hardly at all. 

Q. Describe what he did do. 

A. I know he took mineral water more than he did anything 
else, because I paid for it. He drank occasionally at the State din- 
ners, wdiich I attended with him, either a glass of champagne or a 
glass of light wine usually when served at those dinners. 

Q. During your entire personal acquaintanceship with him and 
your close touch, and your knowledge from his accounts, and from 
the observation of your eyes, and every other human w^ay, have you 
ever seen the plaintiff in the slightest degree under the influence of 
wine or spirituous or malt liquors? 

A. Never. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Andrews : — Q. You have been for some period of time 
connected with the Outlook Company? 
A. I have. 

208 



Q. And are you a writer for that paper ? 
A, I am. 

Q. How long have you been a writer? 
A. You mean for the Outlook? 
Q. Yes, sir. 

A. About twenty-two or twenty-three years. 
Q. You expected to have the services of Air. Roosevelt per- 
haps before he started for Africa? 

A. Why, I didn't expect to have them; we had them when he 

started. 

Q. You at that time were interested in the trip, that is, interested 
in his connection with it? 

A. I don't understand you, sir, 

Q. He was in your employ all the time he was there, was he 

not? 

A. He was in the employ of my company, yes. 

O. I refer to that in speaking of you. So that as a company, 
or you as president, were interested in the trip and in all that was 
done along the line of the trip? 

A. I was not interested especially, no; I was interested as his 
personal friend. 

O. He was your employee, too? 

A. He was an employee of my company, yes. 

O. You were interested since that time in his success in every 
way that you could think of? 

A. Most decidedly. 

O. Of course you feel an interest in the outcome of the lawsuit 
here ? 

A. Exactly, th€ same interest I should feel with any other in- 
timate friend. 

O. The question is, do you feel an interest? 

A. A decided interest. 

O. On your trips to these places you do not say that Air. Roose- 
velt abstained from the use of any kind of wines or drinks of that 
kind? 

A. No ; I should say he was more abstemious — 

A/Ir. Pound: — I object to that; there is no use of putting up 
a man of straw — what he does not pretend to cover ; nobody claims 
anything for it except what he saw, and the only thing he was 
asked about was what he had seen, and I object to what he didn't 
see. 

209 



Mr. Andrews: — Q. At all events, you saw him drink wines 
from time to time? 
A. Occasionally. 

Q. You saw him drink champagnes, or do you include that 
under the head of wines? 

A. I suppose I include it under the head of wines. 

O. At all events, you saw him drink champagne? 

A. I can't swear that I did, but I presume that I did, because 
he attended dinners where champagnes were served, and where I 
drank it. 

O. And you didn't observe to see whether he did or not? 

A. I observed that he drank — 

Q. Something? 

A. Something. 

O. Just how much, or what it was, you are not able to say, are 
you ? 

A. Yes, I am able to say how much. 

O. Did you watch to see— I don't mean to say you watched 
him in any offensive way; you were not observing just to see what 
he ate or drank? 

A. No, certainly; I was observing him constantly, because I 
was very much interested in him, and know the occasions. 

Q. Now, since that time, you have not traveled with him on any 
of his political trips, have you? 

A. Do you mean during the political campaigns? 

Q. Yes, sir. 

A. No, but I went with him on a trip to the Pennsylvania coal 
mines, when I was alone with him for nearly a week. 

Q. When was that? 

A. I think it was in the autumn of 1910. but I am not sure. 

O. I. of course, have not included that among the political trips. 
That was not a political trip, was it? 

A. No. it was not, but I traveled with him intimately during 
a week. 

O. Your home is outside of the city of New York ? 

A. It is now, yes. 

Q. How far out is that? 

A. About twenty miles. 

Q. You just come into town for the business part of the time 
and live out there all the year around? 

210 



A. I live there all the year round, but I spend one or two or 
three nights a week in Xew York. 
O. And are there perhaps daily? 
A. Daily. 

Mr. Andrews:— I think that is all, Mr. Abbott. 
Mr. Pound: — Q. Would the Outlook Company retain an em- 
ployee who was in the habit of getting drunk? 
A. No. 

Mr. Andrews:— I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 
Court : — That answer will be stricken out. 

Mr. PoVnd: — I think it is competent, because it bears on the 
question of damages. 

Court :— Do you desire to show that the plaintiff had been dis- 
charged from the Outlook Company, or that there was a reduction 
of salary on account of this article? 

Mr. Pound: — If the charge were true, he would not retain him 
in employment. 

Court : — You are not claiming damages on account of his being 
discharged or for the loss of any salary or anything of that sort 
with the Outlook Company? 

Mr. Pound: — No sir. I think Your Honor understands what 
I am claiming. Your Honor states what I am not claiming cor- 
rectly. 

Court : — I don't think whether his company would or would not 
employ the plaintiff as he was or was not a person in the habit of 
becoming intoxicated, is quite competent. 

Mr. Pound: — I want an exxeption, if the Court please, to that 
ruling. 

Court : — You have an exception. 

Mr. Andrews: — O. I want to ask you if you have for a number 
of years past known what was common talk in Washington and in 
Boston and in the States about the State of New York, in regard to 
Mr. Roosevelt's drinking? 

Mr. Pound: — I object to that. 

Court : — You have already offered that. 

Mr. Andrews: — Does the Court exclude it? 

Court : — Do you wish to be heard further? 

Mr. Andrews : — I don't care to be heard further. 

Court : — The objection is sustained. 

Mr. Andrews : — I take an exception. 

211 



James R. Garfield, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

]\Ir. Pound: — O. Your name is James R. Garfield? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What relation are you to President Garfield? 

A. One of his sons. 

Q. Where do you live? 

A. INlentor, Ohio. 

Q. What year were you born in? 

A. 1865. 

O. W^ere you born in Mentor? 

A. I was born in Highland, Ohio. 

H. Have you held any public office in your life? 

A. I have. 

Q. Please enumerate them. 

A. You mean by that, an appointive office, or elective office? 

O. Both. 

A. I have been a member of business organizations at home, in 
my village, the school council, and municipal council ; I was state 
senator in Ohio for two terms ; I was thereafter appointed by 
President Roosevelt as a member of the Civil Service Commission, 
where I served for one year, from 1902 to 1903. In 1903 I was 
appointed Commissioner of Corporations, and served there until 
March 4, 1908, when I became a member of President Roosevelt's 
cabinet, being Secretary of the Interior, where I served until 
]\Iarch 4, 1909. 

O. You are now how many years old? 

A. Forty-seven. 

Q. 3ilarried? 

A. I am. 

O. What are you doing now? 

A. Practising law. 

O. Where are you practising law? 

A. In Cleveland, Ohio. 

O. Where is your office? 

A. In the (iarfield building. 

O. How long have you been practising law? 

A. 1 have been practicing law there since the cessation of my 
official duties, since March 4, 1909. 

O. Your father was president of the United States what year? 

A. He was elected in 1880. 

212 



Q. At that time, you were a boy how old? 

A. Fifteen, nearly. 

Q. During his incumbency of the office of president until the 
time of his death, what can you say to this jury as to whether 
there was a custom in the White House, or what was the fact, as 
to whether there were dinners given, commonly called state dinners ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to the question as irrelevant and im- 
material to this issue. 

Court : — Don't you think you have covered that sufficiently ? 

Mr. Pound : — I think not ; I certainly have as to the preceding 
administrations, but I asked a witness for repute, and your Honor 
held it was not sufficient. 

Court : — I recall that. You may take the answer. 

Mr. Andrews : — I except. 

A. As I recall it, there were no state dinners given during my 
father's administration. 

Mr. Pound : — O. What kind of dinners were given ? 

A. The regular dinners that would occur there with some 
friends. 

Q. How long did your father occupy the position of president 
of the United States? 

A. Until September 19, 1881. 

Q. A period of how long? 

A. About six months. 

Q. Now, of course, the White House is the president's resi- 
dence ? 

A. It is, and it was then. 

Q. What can you say, at that time during that administration, 
as to whether there were wines kept by the president, or not? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial. 

Court : — You may take the answer. 

A. Wines were kept there. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Was that true during the administration? 

A. I have so stated, so far as I know. 

Q. Do you know about the succeeding administrations of Pres- 
ident Arthur? 

A. I do not. 

Q. Your schooling was obtained where? 

A. In Ohio, and in Washington, and in New Hampshire, and 
in Massachusetts. 

218 



O. What academic or college education have you? 

A. T was a graduate of Williams College, and Columbia. 

O. Did you receive a degree? 

A. I did. 

Q. Of what ? 

A. B.A. 

Q. And that is the only degree you have, is it — all I want to 
know is, whether you bothered about getting a Master's degree or 
anything of that kind? 

A. No, I did not ; an honorary degree, only. 

Q. Will you tell the jury during the time of your coimection 
with the administration of the plaintitT while he was president, 
whether you came in touch with him, and if so, to what extent, in 
the way of visiting one another and being in one another's com- 
pany ? 

A. I had known Mr. Roosevelt prior to the time he was elected 
president. I had seen him at various times in New York and in 
Washington and at Albany while he was governor. 

Q. In other words, you were personal friends before? 

A. Yes, sir, we were. 

Q. Before he became a national officer? 

A. Yes, sir, as a member of the Civil Service Commission I 
had occasion to see the president very often, many times every day 
in the week, with the other members of the Commission, or alone. 
As Commissioner of Corporations I saw him very much more often. 
It was at the time of the organization of the bureau, and I was in 
conference with the president many, many times; and during the 
four years when I was commissioner we were constantly together 
officially. As a member of his cabinet the last two years of his 
administration I was still more closely associated with him, seeing 
him often every day ; many times more than once a day, and during 
all that time I was likewise personally and socially intimately con- 
nected with him. I rode with him, played tennis, walked, and gen- 
erally took exercise of that kind, of the kind men do when they 
are good comrades. Our families knew one another. He and his 
children and my children and I often played together, taking walks, 
being together at his house. I also visited him in Oyster Bay at 
various times, seeing him intimately in his family there, and many 
trips that I took. 

Q. In that connection, and especially at the executive mansion, 

214 



what can you say as to whether you were invited to and did par- 
ticipate in the meals of the family? 
A. I did very often. 

Q. What meals? 

A. At breakfast, and at the luncheon hour, and at dinner. At 
one time I lived with the president at the White House for nearly 
ten days. On trips that he took, during the time he was president, 
I at various times accompanied him, being with him in his car and 
with him at the hotels where he stopped. Since he left the presi- 
dency I have seen him very often — 

Q. One question right there : When did you see him relative to 
his departure for Africa? 

A. I was in New York when he left. 

O. After his departure for Africa, when did you next see him? 

A. On his return from Africa, I met him in New York City. 

O. On his return, state with what degree of intimacy you have 
been in touch with him up to the present time ? 

/ I have seen him practically every time I have been to New 
York, which has been quite often, going many times to his house 
and spending the night with him and his family at Oyster Bay. 
I have accompanied him on some longer trips that he has taken 
through this country, such as for example, the one in 1910, meeting 
him at Omaha, and going with him to Cheyenne, Denver, and back 
through Kansas, then into Minneapolis, back through Milwaukee 
and Chicago. At other times through the campaigns I have met 
him at various places where he has been speaking. I was with him 
a portion of the campaign trip in Vermont last year. I was with 
him through nearly all of the trip in Ohio during the last primary 
campaign ; so that during these years I have seen him many, many 
times, and have been intimately associated with him. Now, I may 
say, in connection with our work and life together in Washington, 
I have been with him at times when he was under very great mental 
strain, hours and hours working together. I have been with him 
when we have been on our trips for exercise, long hours of walking 
or riding, under conditions where men would become tired as the 
result of hard vigorous physical exercise, walking through the rain, 
swimming, and riding, climbing, playing tennis, where men would 
take hard physical exercise, as the result of two or three hours' 
exercise. I have been with him on rides in the West, where it has 
been a long hard horseback ride over the prairies. 

215 



Q. About how many miles have you accompanied him a day, 
approximately ? 

A. I think that ride was in the neighborhood of twenty or thirty 
miles; in the walks, five or ten miles, as the case might be. In 
other words, I have seen him under all conditions that men work 
and exercise. 

O. How long was it before the catastrophe at Milwaukee that 
you last had seen him? 

A. I think about a month prior to that time. 

Q. And how soon after that, and where did you see him? 

A. I saw him in New York, within two or three weeks, I think, 
after his return to New York. 

Q. And from that time up to the present, what have you seen 
of him? 

A. Probably once or twice a month, whenever I have been in 
New York, I have seen him. 

Q. Tell me as near as you can remember, the course you took 
when you accompanied the plaintiff in this case through the state 
of Ohio, town by town. 

A. I met him in Chilicothe, in Ross County. That afternoon at 
Columbus I joined him again. From Columbus, the next day we 
covered what is known as the northern and central portion of the 
state, stopping at about ten or twelve towns, where Mr. Roosevelt 
spoke at each place, either from the car or from a stand in the 
town. We ended that night at Cleveland. That evening after the 
meeting he went with me. 

Q. Was there a meeting in Cleveland? 

A. There was a meeting in Cleveland ; two meetings, in fact. 

Q. About how long did he talk ? 
i A. The first meeting he talked for nearly two hours, and the 
second meeting, probably a half an hour; and after this meeting 
he went with me to my home at Menton, where he spent Sunday; 
Sunday night we came back to Cleveland and went from there to 
the Ohio River, to Marietta, as I recall it. 

Q. What course? 

A. That is almost south, south to the Ohio River. The next day 
we came up through the towns from Marietta north. 
Q, Name one or more of them. 

A. Coshocton, Zanesville, Newark, and across to Bellaire, and 
Marion, I think, and from there back on the Pennsylvania line, 

216 



where I left him, at Bowerston, the last place he spoke, and he 
went east, and I went north to my home in Cleveland. 

O. Were you with him on any other trip through Ohio? 

A. Not for any long trip. 

O. Well, short trips? 

A. Short trips, I met him at different points in that campaign. 

Q. Were you on any other journey with him, what I have 
called here as the presidential primary? 

A. Not in Ohio. 

Q. Now, tell me where, if anywhere, you saw him after that 
presidential trip, where you saw him, and when? 

A. Soon after that we went to Chicago for the National Repub- 
lican Convention. I was with him during the whole of that con- 
vention, and then during the entire convention of the Progressive 
Party in Chicago. 

Q. Did you see him more or less during the campaign up until 
after the election? 

A. I did ; I was with him in \"ermont when he was making a 
campaign there, joining him when he came into the State at Ben- 
nington, and going with him through the states, leaving him at 
Rutland. 

Q. Now, I ask you, from your intimate association and knowl- 
edge of ]\lr. Roosevelt, what, if any, kind of liquor have you ever 
seen him make use of, either spirituous or malt? 

A. The only liquor I have ever seen Mr. Roosevelt taste was 
that which w^as contained in a mint julep ; the only other, the wine 
I have seen him take has been that of champagne at a dinner, or 
some light wine. 

Q. Have you ever seen him, during the entire period of your 
acquaintanceship with him, in the slightest degree under the in- 
fluence of any kind of liquor? 

A. He has never been, since I have known him, nearly twenty 
years, ever under the influence of intoxicating liquors of any kind 
or character. He has not in my — 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. I move to strike out the 
answer as being of necessity simply a conclusion of the witness. I 
mean to say he has not given sufficient facts to state that a man has 
never been in a certain condition, as I recall the answer. 

Court : — I think counsel is correct. We will have the answer 
read and listen to the answer. The witness was about to add, he 
said, "Not in my." 

217 



A. What I intended to say, not in my presence, not while I have 
been with him. 

Court : — The answer may stand now. 

Mr. Andrews :— With that statement I have no objection. 

A. I had not finished my statement. 

Mr. Pound : — O. WHiat would yon say, from your acquaintance- 
ship with him and the times you have been with him. whether it 
would have been possible for the plaintiff to have either gotten 
drunk or been in the habit of getting drunk, without your knowing 
it? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that, as simply calling for a con- 
clusion, as being irrelevant and incompetent. 

Court : — I am not quite satisfied with the form of your question, 
Mr. Pound. The question is not necessarily whether he is a person 
in the habit of becoming drunk, but whether he may have become 
drunk frequently. 

Mr. Pound : — I adopt Your Honor's suggestion. I think it is 
better than mine. 

O. What do you say as to whether, from your knowledge of 
the plaintiff in this case, he could have become under the influence 
of liquor frequently without your knowing it? 

Court : — And from your obser\^ation and knowledge, witness. 

Mr. Andrews: — The only objection 1 have to that — and I don't 
want to make a technical objection — I think he is calling for a con- 
clusion of y\r. Garfield, as to whether from the fact he concludes 
that a certain thing is true. I think Mr. Garfield should state the 
facts, and let the jury conclude what the result would be. 

A. It was impossible for Mr. Roosevelt to have been under the 
influence of liquor frequently without my knowing it. I have been 
with him so often, and under so many conditions, that he could not 
have taken liquor without my knowing it. And he is, if I may 
say here, he has led a clean and decent life — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that; it is not responsive. 

Court : — The last part of the answer of the witness is stricken 
out, and you may have an exception to the answer which stands. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Now, when was it, if at any particular time, 
that the plaintiff made use of champagne, at all meals, or at par- 
ticular meals ? 

A. I have seen him partake of champagne a very few times. At 
formal dinners and banquets he has sipped champagne, or taken a 
glass or two, or possibly a glass of some other light wine. I have 

218 



never seen him take any kind of wine at any time other than at 
dinner, or on one or two occasions at a reception where he has 
tasted champagne. 

Q. What I call your particular attention to, what has been his 
habit in that regard as to breakfast and supper? 

A. He has never at any breakfast that I have been with him, 
and I have been at many. 

Q. Or luncheon? 

A. At luncheon he has not tasted any wine or liquor of any kind. 

Q. You have referred to something in reference to the nature of 
exercise that you participated in with him. On the return from 
those rides or anything else, what refreshment, if any, was made 
use of by him, to your observation ? 

A. Always drinking a cup of tea, or several cups of tea. Even 
after the hardest ride, when he came in cold and wet and tired, 
there was nothing taken but tea. 

Q. During the entire seven years you knew him, you have al- 
ready said you saw him drink one minte julep ; how many mint 
juleps altogether in your life have you seen the plaintiff consume? 

A. That is the only one I ever have seen him consume or taste. 

O. Do you know anything about the times of his retiring, upon 
these trips around the country, of having any drink, and if so, what 
it was? 

A. At times in the evening I have seen him take a milk punch 
on retiring. 

Q. Tell us what it consisted of. 

A. At that time, as I supposed, the milk punch was always made 
with some brandy ; how much, I don't know. 

Q. Have you ever seen him make use of liquor in any way to 
stimulate his mentality for the problems he had to face and meet? 

A. I never have. I have never seen him stimulated in the 
slightest degree by any wines that he has ever taken. 

Q. Do you remember now the date that you and the plaintiff 
were together in Columbus, Ohio, on the primary trip? 

A. Aly impression is, it was the 17th or i8th day of May, 1912. 
And I might state that I had forgotten another time I was with 
him in Columbus ; that was on the day that he made his speech 
before the constitutional convention. I met him in Columbus, was 
with him all the afternoon, and accompanied him to Cleveland, and 
left him as he left on that train for the East. 

Q. What can you say as to whether the fact is or is not, that he 

219 



at any time in Ohio, to your knowledge, was in the sHghtest degree 
under the influence of any liquor? 

]Mr. Andrews: — Just a moment. Has not ]\Ir. Garfield covered 
this completely? He keeps repeating the same thing. 

Court : — He asks if he was under the influence of liquor. 

A. To the best of my knowledge he was not under the influence 
of liquor in the slightest degree at any time in Ohio. 

AIr. Pound: — Q. Just one more question. Can you give me the 
date in Way that you were with him? 

A. It was from May 17th or i8th to May 21st inclusive. At any 
rate, it was from Friday until Sunday of that month. 

O. What year ? 

A. 1912. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

J\Ir. Belden : — Q. You are a practising lawyer in the city of 
Cleveland, are you not? 
A. I am. 

O. What is the name of your firm? 
A. I am practising alone. 

Q. You have no partner? 

A. I have not. 

Q. Was the statement which Mr. Pound has used in examining 
you prepared by you before coming here? 

A. I don't know what statement he had. I did prepare a state- 
ment which I gave him. 

O. Did you assist or advise in the preparation of this case? 

A. I did not. 

O. Or in the preparation of the statements of witnesses? 

A. T have assisted in the preparation of some statements of 
some witnesses. 

Q. Some witnesses who have testified here? 

A. I have. 

Q. Where is Mentor, Ohio, with reference to Cleveland? 

A. It is about twenty-four miles east, on the Lake Shore n^ad. 

O. About how far approximately is that from New York City? 

A. I think it is between five and six hundred miles, as I recall it. 

Q. That has been your home always, has it? 

A. It has. 

220 



O. What was the first appointment you received from the 
plaintiff in this case? 

A. Commissioner of Civil Service. 

O. What year did you receive that appointment? 

A. 1902. 

0. How long did you hold that office under the plaintiff 

A. Until the spring of 1903. 

O. Now, what was the next position to which the plaintiff 

appointed you? 

A. Commissioner of Corporations. 

Q. How long did you hold that office under him ? 

A. Until ^ larch 4, 1907. 

O. What was the next office to which the plaintff appointed 

you ? 

A. Secretary of the Interior. 

O. How long did you hold that office under him? 

A. Until the termination of President Roosevelt's term, March 

4, 1909- ^ , . ^ 

O. Did you receive any other appomtments from him . 

A. No other. 

O. Governmental positions, I mean? 

A. No other. 

Q. Have you received any other appointments to governmental 
positions, I mean in the national government, from any one else 
than the plaintiff? 

A. I have not. 

O. The period of time during which you lived in Washington 
holding these offices under the president was altogether about how 

long ? 

A. It was from ^lay, I think, 1902, until March, 1909. 

Q. Since :\ larch 4, 1909, your residence has been, as you have 
stated, at Mentor? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And your association with the plaintiff since that time has 
consisted only of these occasional trips you have made with him, 
was it not? 

A. No, I have often written him. 

Q. I mean outside of your correspondence with him? 

A. Outside of my correspondence, only when w^e were able to 
be together, when I was in New York or he was in the West, Cleve- 
land, or other points that I have stated on these various trips. 

221 



O. And meanwhile you were engaged in the practice of law at 
Cleveland, Ohio? 

A. I was. 

Q. What was the first town in Ohio at which you attended the 
plaintiff in his primary campaign ? 

A. Chillicothe. 

O. On what day was that? 

A. Either the 17th or i8th of May; my impression was that.it 
was the i8th; it was at least Friday of that week. 

O. You went with him across the northern portion of the State, 
I think you have said? 

A. Not on that day. 

O. Chillicothe is south of Columbus? 

A. He spoke in Chillicothe that morning, and then went south ; 
I went north to Columbus and joined him in Columbus that evening. 

O. So that you did not follow him around on that trip during 
this day? 

A. No. 

O. You joined him at Columbus, and where did you go from 
there ? 

A. From there we went north, leaving Columbus sometime — 
the next morning; we spent the night at Columbus, and went north, 
to Marion and across to Akron, I think it was, and from there to 
Cleveland by way of Ravenna. 

O. Was there any campaign trip on which you accompanied him 
in 1912? 

A. Yes, the next Monday I went with him to the southern part 
of the State, ^Marietta, and then came up through the counties that 
lie east of Columbus, and was with him until he left the State on 
^Monday afternoon. 

Q. The two trips on wiiicli you accompanied him in 1912 would 
be tins trip in Ohio, this trip or trips as you yourself call it, in Ohio, 
and the trip to \'ermont, would it not ? 

A. No, I was with him, as I said, on the way to Chicago at the 
time of both conventions. 

Q. I mean the campaign trips? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Have you visited his home frequently in ( )yster Bay since 
he left the White House? 

A. Yes, I have. 

222 



Q. Are you able to state whether he keeps wines and Hquors 
in stock at his home? 

A. I am only able to state that I have seen on his table sherry 
and champagne. 

O. I noticed occasionally that Mr. Pound in questioning you 
used the word wines, and other times liquors, in asking you ques- 
tions with reference to the plaintiff. Have you been making a 
distinction in your answers because of the fact that he referred to 
the use of wines and liquors? 

A. No. I have not been making a distinction. I have been en- 
deavoring to tell exactly what I have known ^Iv. Roosevelt to use 
in the way of drink. 

O. This is my question; occasionally Mr. Pound asked you 
about the use of liquor by Mr. Roosevelt, and you made a certain 
answer. I am asking if you changed the form of your answer 
because he ommitted the word wines from his question? 

A. I did not intentionally. I did not intend to ; I meant to cover 
in my statements regarding Mr. Roosevelt's habits as I know it, 
that he has never used whiskies, brandies, cocktails, liquors of that 
character, in any degree at any time other than with the exceptions 
I have stated, and as to the wines, he has used the two wines I have 
stated and in the degrees I have stated. I make that different, be- 
cause that it is the fact; and when I made the statement further 
as to the influence that wines or liquor have upon Mr. Roosevelt 
I have tried to cover both forms, whether it be milk punch, whether 
it be one mint julep that I referred to, or whether it be- the wines 
to which I have referred. 

Q. You were not eliminating champagne from the list of in- 
toxicating liquors? 

A. Certainly not. 

O. You were not eliminating sherry from that list? 

A. I was not, and I included both of those when I say he has 
not been under their influence in the slightest degree. 

Mr. Belden :— That is all. 



Edmund Heller, sworn on the part of the plaintiff', testified as 
follows : 

Mr. Pound: — 0. What is your full name? 

A. Edmund Heller. 

Q. How old a man are you? 

A. Thirty-seven. 

223 



O. Where were you born ? 
A. Freeport, Illinois. 

O. How long did you live in the State of Illinois? 
A. Thirteen years. 
Q. From there where did you go? 
A. To California. 
Q. What part ? 
A. Riverside, California. 

Q. How long did you live in the State of California? 
A. About fifteen years. 
Q. Then where did you go? 

A. Why, I traveled about after that in various parts of Mexico 
and Central America and this country and Africa. 

O. Where did you get your schooling, your education ? 
A. In California. 

O. What was the last institution of learning that you attended 
in California? 

A. Stanford University. 

O. AMien was it you came to Washington first? 

A. I came there about 1905, I believe. 

O. W'hen did you first see the plaintiff? 

A. I think it was in 1905. 

O. Where did you see him? 

A. At the White House. 

O. At the present time, what is your occupation? 

A. Naturalist. 

O. Wliere? 

A. At the Smithsonian Institution at Washington. 

0. At the National Museum, in Washington? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you have any connection with the African expedition 

of the plaintiff? 

A. I was one of the naturalists sent out by the Smithsonian 
Institution to take care of the specimens shot by Colonel Roosevelt 
during the African trip. 

O. You w^ere connected with the trip, but an employee of the 
Smithsonian Institution ? 

A. Yes, my special function was to take care of the large game 
shot by Colonel Roosevelt. 

0. Where did you join the plaintiff? 

A. At New York. 

224 



O. Where at New York.'' 

A. At the dock from which the steamer sailed, the Hamburg 
dock. 

O. And before that time, how many times had you seen Mr. 
Roosevelt ? 

A. Probably twice in Washington. 

Q. Where had you seen the plaintiff? 

A. In Washington, at the White House. 

O. At the time you got on board, had the plaintiff come on 
board himself? 

A. We met him at the dock and we all went on together prac- 
tically. 

Q. You embarked you say on this voyage? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. During that voyage, how frequently did you see the plain- 
tiff? 

A. Why, very frequently, at mealtimes, of course, and very 
often during the day, and we often discussed matters in regard to 
his coming trip, in his cabin, and I saw him very frequently. 

Q. During that time, will you tell the jury what the fact is as 
to whether or not you had more or less conversation with him ? 

A. I had a great deal of conversation regarding the plans for the 
African trip. 

Q. Where did you make a landing first in Europe? 

A. The first landing in Europe was at Gibraltar. 

Q. On the way over across the Atlantic did you touch any 
islands ? 

A. At the Azores for a few hours. 

Q. How long did you remain at Gibraltar? 

A. About six hours. 

Q. And then where did your vessel continue on its course? 

A. From there we went to Naples, where we stopped some eight 
hours and transhipped to another steamer. \ 

Q. Then, where? ^ 

A. From there we went southward to the Suez Canal at Port 
Said — 

Q. Then you went to Egypt? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Where was the port you stopped in Egypt? 

A. Port Said. 

225 



O. Just describe briefly your course from Port Said to Mom- 
basa ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to tbat as irrelevant and immaterial. 
In other words, they took a long, winding course, and through sta- 
tions with great big African names, and I cannot see how it can bear 
on this matter. I will not object to his asking the witness if he was 
with Mr. Roosevelt clear through the whole trip, and save time. 

Court: — I see no objection to the jury knowing just where they 
went, what time was spent, what they did, and all about it. 

Mr. Andrews: — It seems to me that it is immaterial. 

Court : — You may go on. 

A. From Port Said we sailed through the Suez Canal, and down 
the Red Sea, stopping a few hours at Aden, Arabia, and from Aden 
we went through — we stopped at Mukdeesha, a small port on the 
African coast, and went to Mombasa. 

Mr. Pound: — O. During that time how much were you in the 
company of the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I was with him daily, at mealtimes. 

O. From Mombasa— is that where you call the beginning of 
your trip into Africa? 

A. Yes. 

O. What course did you take from the point of entrance to your 
coming out at Khartum; just briefly describe the points, that is all? 

A. From Mombasa we went up the country by railway to a 
point called Nera, and at Kapiti plains the Saft'ari met us— the 
negro porters to be used in this hunt. We stopped there a few days, 
and from there we went up to Katanga, a few miles distant, and 
stopped two weeks with Sir Alfred Pease ; and from this point we 
journeyed over to Ujiji farm. Then to Nairobi, and from Nairobi 
we again took the railway and went up country to the station Ki- 
jaba. From Kijaba we went south or southwest into the Sosian 
country, and maybe we spent about six weeks in the Sobian country. 
Then w^e returned the same way we had gone in. and returned again 
to Naivasha. and from Lake Naivasha we again returned to Nai- 
robi. There we shipped a lot of our specimens, and made another 
trip, returning again to Naivasha, and made a trip to i\It. Kenia. 
Hunting was engaged in. hunting elephants on the southern slopes 
of Mt. Kenia. Then we skirted the northwestern side of Mt. Kenia. 
to Mero, a station just north of ^It. Kenia, where elephant hunting 
was again engaged in ; and from Mero a trip was made down to the 
Guaso Nyiro river country, and a trip was made along the river, 

226 



and a return trip was made up this river, and partially over to Mere 
again, and then we returned to Naivasha ; and then the railroad 
was again taken up country, and a trip was made into a plateau 
where several weeks were spent hunting. Then we returned from 
this trip the same way we had gone in, and we swung across and 
came to Albert Nyanza ; then from the Albert Ayanza we went 
down the Nile to a point south of Wadelai where rhinoceros hunt- 
ing was engaged in for a couple of weeks. After this was finished 
we continued on down the Nile. We sailed down the Nile to Lake 
No, where more hunting was engaged in; and from Lake No we 
continued down the Nile to Khartum. 

O. How long did it take, in point of time, to do that work, to 
cover that trip ? 

A. This was a year's journey. I was eleven months in Africa, 
about. 

O. How many miles were traversed — straight? 

A. A couple of thousand, I presume. 

O. Did you get any game? 

A. The large animals, the big game, consisted of some seven 
hundred specimens. 

Q. By the large animals, what is included? 

A. I mean just large game, what is called big game — elephant, 
rhinoceros, and large carnivorous animals — lions, leopards, and 
animals of that sort. 

O. What were your duties in reference to them? 

A. It was my special duty to take care of the skins of the speci- 
mens which Colonel Roosevelt shot — of those large animals. And 
in carrying out those duties, I was with him constantly on this trip, 
and went with him daily on his hunts, to take care of the speci- 
mens as soon as they were shot. This was made necessary by the 
hot climate, as the skins had to be taken off the animals at once. 

Q. How were they killed — by snare, or ball? 

A. They were practically all shot. 

O. What other animals were killed? 

A. V^ery small animals were trapped, and a number were shot 
by various members of the party. 

Q. How many were in the party? 

A. There were seven, most of the time. 

Q. And that included what, in the way of guides? 

A. Including the white guides we had. 

Q. How many s[)ecimens did you bring out? 

227 



A. The total was some twenty-three thousand, 1 beHeve. That 
inclnded everything. 

Q. In addition to curing and looking after the large game that 
was killed, what did you do, if anything, with the plaintiff, in con- 
nection with looking after other specimens, birds, and smaller 
things ? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt shot chiefly the large game. He was not 
engaged in hunting birds. 

Q. Did you, independently of the company, have anything to 
do with any of the rest? 

A. I occasionally made collection of smaller animals. I was so 
fully occupied taking care of the large game that I didn't ha\e time 
to do but very little of that. 

Q. Where did you sleep on that voyage and journey? 

A. A tent of my own, in which I slept. 

Q. How close would that be ordinarily, to that of the plaintiff? 

A. A\'hy, probably thirty feet, or forty, perhaps. The tents 
were all in a row, and the Colonel's was in the middle, and various 
tents w^ere placed near that. 

Q. Who occupied the plaintift''s tent, if anybody? 

A. He occupied it alone. 

Q. Did he have any children along with him? 

A. A\ hy, he had one son, Kermit, with him. 

Q. \\'here did the boy sleep? 

A. His tent was pitched next to his father's. 

Q. A\'hat other tents were there? 

A. Then there was that of Dr. Mearns, and Mr. Loring. and 
Mr. Cunningham — six tents all together — and Mr. Tarlton's. 

Q. Seven ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. From Khartum where did you go — what I want to get at, 
did you go to Europe, or did you go home? 

A. I returned to America by way of Europe, but the party 
disbanded at Khartum. Colonel Roosevelt left us there. There 
were no more natural history operations engaged in. 

Q. Did you see Mrs. Roosevelt about that time? 

A. Yes, we saw her at Khartum. 

Q. And he and his wife and daughter and family went in one 
direction, and you went in another, towards home. Was it your 
duty then to look after the product of the chase, that was secured? 

A. Yes. 

228 



Q. To see it was brought properly to this country? 

A. Yes. A\*e cased up the specimens and sent them on home. 

Q. When the plaintiff got back to America where did you see 
him? 

A. I saw him probably six months afterwards. 

Q. And since that time how many times have you seen him — 
many or few? 

A. Oh, probably some eight or ten times since then. 

Q. When did you see him, and where did you see him? 

A. At his home at Oyster Bay. 

Q. Were you there at any length at all, or just simply stepped 
in during the day? 

A. I usually stayed over night. 

Q. Do you recall any time longer than two days, since he re- 
turned from Africa, more than two days and part of a night? 

A. No. 

Q. From the time that you and the plaintiff met on the Ham- 
burg dock, and shipped upon the steamer "Hamburg" — as I under- 
stand the name of it w^as — until you left him in Khartum, tell the 
jury of your associations with him. showing how close they were? 

A. I was with him daily, of course, during the trip, and in 
Africa I was with him practically all of the time. All day long I 
was with him, following him about in his hunting trips; I was with 
him at meal-times. I saw him practically every day for a whole 
year, practically all of the time that he was about. 

O. What was the condition of his health, as to w^iether he was 
ill at any time during the trip? 

A. I don't recall that he was ill. 

O. Were you ill? 

A. Yes. 

O. Where was it you were ill? 

A. I was ill at Meru. that is on the north of jNIt. Kenia. and 
again at Gondokoro, for a few days. 

O. What was the difficulty with you ? How much were you 
incapacitated? 

A. Due to malaria. I was just put out for a day or so. 

O. On those days where was Mr. Roosevelt? Did he come to 
your tent to see how you were? 

A. Yes, at Meru I saw him occasionally. At Gondokoro he was 
off on a hunt with his son Kermit. I did not see him during that 
time, just a few days. 

229 



Q. How many days was he out of your sight when he went 
with the boy ; can you tell me precisely, or about ? 

A. Probably, say about ten days, as I remember it, or less. 

O. During which time you don't claim to have seen him? 

A. No. 

O. Were there any other tri]js that he took that you know about ? 

A. He also went down the Guaso Nyiro river while I was sick 
at Meru, and I didn't see him for some ten days. 

Q. Outside of those twenty days, what is the fact, during the 
entire eleven months you were in the wilds of Africa, as to your 
seeing him every day? 

A. I practically saw him every day. 

O. Was he hunting every day ? 

A. No. 

O. Did he get ahead of you? 

A. He hunted almost every day, but occasionally after large 
animals were shot, it required several days to ]>repare the si)eci- 
mens, so he would hold u]) for a day or so at a time until we were 
ready to take care of more specimens. It was our duty to secure 
every specimen he shot. 

O. How did you mess as to food ? 

A. \\ hy, we dined with the Colonel. 

O. One common table, was it ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Breakfast, dinner and su])i)er would lie taken in communion, 
by the whole of you? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Was the Colonel at any time in\ ited away to any estates of 
any men ? 

A. W hy, there were a few puljlic dinners that he attended, and 
for a few days he was with Lord on an estate in Nairobi. 

Q. Were you along at that time? 

A. No. I was not along with him at that time. 

O. During all the time you were with him in Africa, will you 
kindly tell this jury, what, if any li(|Uor. si)irituous, or malt, — an<l 
that includes wine — did the plaintiff consume? 

A. 1 ne\er saw him take a drink during this whole time of 
any alcoholic li(]uor. 

Q. You understand wine is alcoholic, do you not? 

A. Yes. 1 include all wines. 

230 



O. Did he ever take a drink, to your knowledge, of what is 
known as malt liquors — beer, porter, or ale? 

A. No, I never noticed him taking a drink of that. 

Q. Was there any of that in the camp, anyway, that you know 
of? 

A. Yes. there were liquors in the camp. 

Q. I am talking about malt liquors; was there any ale or beer? 

A. No, I don't think so. 

Q. What liquor was there in the camp? 

A. Why, I think there was a case of champagne taken along 
for medicinal purposes, and whiskey occasionally, and that is all 
I know of. 

Q. Tell us. if you know, what became of the champagne; did 
you bring it back or not? 

A. I think it was given away to missionaries. 

Mr. Andrews: — Do you know anything about it^ 

Mr. Pound: — Just wait a minute. 

Court :^Counsel has a right to interrupt. You may have an 
exception, if you care to have it noted. 

Mr. Pound: — If you please. 

Court: — What were you about to say, Mr. Andrews? 

Mr. Andrews: — I do not want to object if he had ]iersonal 
knowledge of the matter. 

Court: — The answer will be stricken out. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. I ask you for your personal knowledge, I 
thought I did before. Do you know what became of the cham- 
pagne ? 

A. I have no personal knowledge of it. 

Q. At meals, while you were in camp, what can you say as to 
whether there was any liquor at the table, at any meals, and if so, 
what ? 

A. At camp I don't remember any liquor being at any of the 
meals. 

Q. Was there any other of the party who became ill besides 
yourself? 

A. Why, Mr. Loring did at the Nile. 

Q. You are living now in Washington, are you? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. That has been your home, has it? 

A. Yes, sir. 

231 



Q. Your testimony was taken in Washington, was it not? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. I ask you, in these hunts, were you along, when they were 
being made? 

A. Yes, I was. 

Q. How did the Colonel shoot — by that I mean, free, or rest'ng 
on something? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. This gentleman has not yet 
qualified as an expert on the question of shooting possibilities. 

Court :^ — The objection is sustained. Go on with something 
else. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. \\hat can you say as to the distance of the 
shots ? 

A. There were various distances. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — The objection is sustained again. We have been over 
this. 

Mr. Pound: — This man never was on the stand before. 

Court: — That makes no difference. The same question was 
asked of another witness, and you have already had a ruling on 
this. 

Mr. Pound: — All right. 

Q. Mr. Heller, I ask you, from your personal ohservation, how 
do you describe the condition of the plaintiff' in this suit during 
the eleven months you were in his company, as to the use of liquor; 
is he a total abstainer or not? 

A. As far as my knowledge goes, he was a total abstainer. I 
did not see him at any time take a drink of alcoholic liquor. 

Q. During your entire acquaintanceship with him, does that in- 
clude the boat, as well as — 

A. Yes, that includes my entire knowledge of him. 

Q. Did you ever see the Colonel, when he was awake, in any 
condition that would intimate that he was laboring under the in- 
fluence of anything? 

A. No, I never have seen him show any evidence of having 
taken alcoholic liquor. 

Q. Now, your business you call what, and you are what? 

A. I am a naturalist. 

Q. How long have you followed that occupation ? 

A. For the last fifteen years. 

232 



Q. Have you ever been connected with any institution in 
Chicago ? 

A. Yes, I was connected with the Field Museum of Chicago 
for some seven years. 

Q. What were your duties there? 

Mr. Andrews : — Does that make any difference in this case ? 
I think it is irrelevant, and therefore object to it. 

Mr. Pound: — It is only one word. 

Court : — Take the answer, then. 

A. My position was that of naturalist. 

Mr. Pound : — Were you ever connected in any way with any 
institution in California? 

A. I was connected with the University of California for a year. 

O. In what capacity? 

A. As museum expert. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

]\Ir. Andrews : — Q. You did not learn all those big names 
while on that trip, did you? 

A. Oh, yes. 

O. You are a temperate man, are you? 

A. Why, I suppose so. 

O. Did you, while you were there, have some assistance? 

A. Yes, I was assisted. 

O. How many? 

A. By a lot of native skinners, some ten or twelve native skin- 
ners. They varied occasionally in number. 

O. They were under your direction? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And worked as you specified? 

A. Yes. 

Q. I suppose you gave some attention to their business, did you ? 

A. Yes, I had to direct them, and they worked in camp while 
I was away. 

Q. You took some natives along with you, didn't you? 

A. Yes, we had to take a few in the field with us, because it 
was necessary to prepare the specimens at once. 

Q. I so understood you. You had a gun bearer that went along? 

A. Yes. 

233 



Q. So that you yourself had quite a body of men along that 
you had to look after? 

A. Yes. 

Q. When you started in with this trip — and I will not for a 
moment try to remember the names — you got sick for about two 
weeks, didn't you, to start with, after you had gone out a ways? 

A. No, not until we had been out several months. I was sick 
at Mt. Kenia, after we were out several months. 

Q. You got left behind, didn't you? 

A. Y"es, that was about ten days. 

O. You got sick at another time, a time or two? 

A. This was only once. This was the first time I am talking 
about. 

O. T am talking about the other times? 

A. T was sick again at (iondokoro, for a few days. 

O. You were sick, were you not, at other places? 

A. Xo, I don't remember that I was. 

O. In the meantime the colonel took side trips ott in various 
places ? 

A. Yes, he did. a few times. 

O. Two or three or four times, ditterent times you reniemlKM- — - 
would you say that many times? 

A. I should say two times. 

Q. You would not ])retend to exactly limit it, would vou? 

A. Yes, T am (piite sure it was two times. 

O. And those trips would take maybe two or three v/eeks? 

A. No; they took ten days each. 

O. In the meantime you were performing the dutic- vou were 
sent there to perform, which, as T understand you, were quite ardu- 
ous in their nature? 

A. T have not mentioned that. 

O. Haven't you said that you were busy, and that you had some 
real work on your hands? 

A. T was very busy taking care of the specimens. 

O. When you got a big specimen, or several specimens, vou 
went right at the work of taking care of it, didn't you? 

A. Yes, sir. They were taken care of at once. 

Q. You had to do it (juick : and sometimes it took tw> or three 
days ? 

A. It did in one or two instances. 

O. It frequently took two days, did it not? 

234 



A. Not very frequently; just a few of the largest specimens. 

Q. And very frequently it took a day? 

A. It did, sometimes. 

O. Of course during that time you don't pretend that you kept 
track of Colonel Roosevelt while you were at that hurry-up v. ork : 

A. No. 

O. \Miere he went and what he did during the interval you do 
not know, of your own knowledge? 

A. No, not from my own knowledge. 

O. Where he went, or what he did during any of these other 
times that you have spoken ahout, when you were sick, or left be- 
hind, or he was away, you don't know, do you? 

A. No. 

Mr. Andrkws : — That is all. 



Mr. Pound: — During the eleven months, what can you say 
about the accuracy of the colonel's eye, and his nerve, as you ob- 
served? 

Mr. Am)ki:\\s: — I object to that. 

Court: — That is the same question, Mr. Pound. 

Mr. Pound: — Note an exception, please. That is all. 



Oscar K. D.wi.s, sworn on the part of the plaintitf, testified as 
follows : 

Mr. Pound: — O. Where do you reside? 

A. Washington, D. C. 

O. What is your business? 

A. I am secretary of the Progressive National Committee, and 
correspondent of some newspapers. 

O. How long have you been in the newspaper business? 

A. Twenty-eight years. 

O. Where were you born? 

A. Baldwinville, New York. 

O. How many years ago is that? 

A. Forty-seven. 

O. Your boyhood was spent where? 

A. In Kansas and Nebraska. 

O. Your first work was started where, in the newspaper line ? 

A. In Nebraska. 

O. At what age, about? 

235 



A. Twenty-two, after I was graduated from college. 

O. What college did you graduate from? 

A. Colgate University at Hamilton, New York. 

Q. Have you been substantially in the newspaper business ever 
since ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I do. 

Q. Will you tell me what, if any, papers you have been con- 
nected with ? 

A. I worked first on a weekly press current in Omaha, called 
the "Merchants' Criterion," I think the name was. In 1890 I went 
to work for the New York Sun, and worked for it for twelve years. 
Subsequently I went to the Russian war, the Japanese-Russian war. 
for the New York Herald. After that I went to Washington, con- 
nected with the Washington bureau of the New York Times, and 
retained that position until a little more than a year ago, when I 
resigned it to become secretary of the Roosevelt National Com- 
mittee. 

O. When was it you first became acquainted with the plaintiff 

in this suit? 

A. In the spring of 1898. 

Q. How did you come to become acquainted with him? 

A. He was Assistant Secretary of the Navy, and 1 understood 
that there was going to be war with Spain, and 1 went to Wash- 
ington and asked him if he would facilitate my getting a place as 
a newspaper man with some Naval commander. 

O. Afterwards did you come in closer touch with him or not; 
describe your relations? 

A. When I became Washington correspondent of the New York 
Times I began some other business, to report the affairs at the 
White House; he was then president, and there developed out of 
that an acquaintanceship and intimacy which has been since mani- 
tained and increased. 

Q. Will you state about what the fact is as to your (opportunity 
of seeing Mr. Roosevelt from the time that you first became ac- 
quainted with him? 

A. During the closing years of his administration, say from 
1907 on, I saw him frequently at the White House. 

O. Now, coming to the year 1910, after the expiration of his 
term as president ? 

236 



A. 1 910, upon his return from Africa, when he went into the 
campaign of that year, I was assigned by the New York Times to 
accompany him on his campaign trips. I accompanied him on the 
Western trip that year when he went out from New York to 
Cheyenne, Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, Nebraska, Iowa, 
South Dakota, North Dakota, Alinnesota and all the rest of that 
trip. And immediately after that he made another trip. It covered 
every State in the Union but three. 

Q. What were they? 

A. I think you must have another trip in mind. 

Q. Very well. You have enumerated all the States you covered 
on that trip that you were on ? 

A. No ; I can, I think. 

Q. I wish you would. 

A. We left New York and went up to Buffalo, and traversed 
New York State and crossed to Pennsylvania, and into Ohio, and 
Indiana, and Illinois, stopping at Chicago, with numerous stops en 
route; from Chicago we went, I think, over the Northwestern 
through Illinois and Iowa, through Nebraska to Cheyenne in Wy- 
oming, then south into Colorado to Denver, then down to Pueblo, 
and from Pueblo to Osawatomie, Kansas; from Osawatomie to 
Lawrence, I think, and then to Kansas City, and from Kansas City 
we went up the river to Omaha, and from Omaha the next day we 
crossed into Iowa, and went up through Iowa up to Sioux Falls, 
South Dakota ; from Sioux Falls we went, I think, to Fargo, North 
Dakota; from Fargo we went to St. Paul; from St. Paul — I am 
not clear whether we went from there to Milwaukee, or whether 
we made Milwaukee on a subsequent trip. 

Q. You w^ere about to say something of another trip ; when was 
that? 

A. At the conclusion of the first trip when we returned to New 
York. 

Q. About how long was the intervening time? 

A. A very few days ; we made another trip, going down to 
Bristol, Tennessee, and Knoxville, and Rome, Georgia, and At- 
lanta, back to Chattanooga, and over to Memphis, and Little Rock. 
I don't think we stopped at Memphis ; we stopped at Little Rock, 
and went up to St. Louis. I think that is the time, on this trip, 
when we went up to Milwaukee. And we were in Virginia, at 
Bristol, Virginia. Bristol is on the Virginia and Tennessee line. 

237 



O. How long did that trip take, about? 

A. Oh, I should say ten days or two weeks. 

O. And the previous you have mentioned? 

A. About three weeks. 

O. When you went up to Missouri did you go on that trip to 
St. Louis? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Do you know on what day you were in St. Louis on tliat 
trip ? 

A. The day of the month? 

O. Xo, the month. 

A. Why, I think it was in October; I have not looked the matter 
up recently, and I cannot recall it. I think it was in October. 

O. On that day was there any particular thing that happened? 

A. There certainly was. 

O. What was it? 

A. Colonel Roosevelt went up in a flying machine. 

Q. On that day what time did you arrive in St. Louis? 

A. In the morning; we had breakfast there. 

O. About what hour would you fix it? 

A. W'hy, I should say that the hour was between seven and 
eight o'clock, the hour of arrival. 

O. Where was it you had breakfast, on the car. or where? 

A. At the hotel. 

O. What hotel was that, or what depot was it? 

A. 1 can't tell you that. My impression is that the hotel was 
the Jeft'erson. 

O. Do you remember the depot you came into, the terminal sta- 
tion there, the big station? 

A. I don't remember; that didn't make much impression on me. 

O. Do you know with whom he took this flight? 

A. With Hoxie. 

O. Didn't you see him make it yoiu'self? 

A. I did. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial and irrelevant. 

Mr. Pound: — I ask that to identify it by him. where I am going 
fix the date. 

Court : — For the purpose of fixing the date we will let the testi- 
mony stand. Otherwise I cannot see that it is material. 

I\Ir. Pound: — O. After he went up to Milwaukee on that oc- 

238 



casion do you remember any trip that the plaintiff made to Sara- 
toga? 

A. After the completion of this trip? 

O. Yes. 

A. Yes. sir, I subsequently went with him to the New York 
Republican state convention at Saratoga. 

O. When you went up with him on those trips were you on 
separate trains? 

A. Oh, on the same train ; and on these campaigns there was one 
private car occupied by Colonel Roosevelt and another private car 
occupied by the newspaper men ; and these two cars — Colonel 
Roosevelt's car was always the last car of the train, and the news- 
paper car was the one immediately preceding it. 

O. How many times would you be in the plaintiff's car, the one 
he occupied ? 

A. Oh, a great many times. 

O. You were in close touch with him? 

A. Constantly. 

O. And the newspaper men, where did they sleep? 

A. In their car. 

O. And you were, as I understand it, attached to the newspaper 
car ? 

A. Yes. 

O. Was there any restriction or limitation in any way about the 
time that you might see the plaintiff", or was that open to you gentle- 
men at any time you wanted? 

A. Why, it was practically open to us. Of course we took pains 
not to interfere with his work, but at all times, every station, there 
would be big crowds of people, and it was his custom to speak to 
such crowds, and it was the custom of the newspaper men and some 
others to go through his car and stand on the rear platform while 
he was speaking. 

O. Now, when did you terminate your services with the New 
York Times — have I got the right paper? 

A. Yes, that was it; about the ist of March, 1912. 

O. Thereafter, were you continuously in the position you now 
holdl' 

A. I resigned from the New York Times to become the sec- 
retary of the Roosevelt National Committee, and served in that 
capacity up to and during the Republican Convention at Chicago 
last year. Immediately thereafter, upon the organization of the 

239 



Progressive National Committee, I was elected secretary of that 
committee, and I still hold that office. 

Q. During that time, state whether you came in close personal 
touch with the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. During the campaign I was very frequently with him, par- 
ticularly during the arrangement for the Progressive National Con- 
vention that was held in Chicago on the 5th of August, 1912; and 
at that time he asked me to take charge of the arrangements for his 
campaign trips. 

Q. Did you do so? 

A. I did. 

Q. You were the man that fixed the routes and dates? 

A. I was. 

O. Tell me how many trips he made in 1912 after the last na- 
tional convention in August. 

A. Two. 

O. Describe them briefly. 

A. The first one started from New York ; he went to Hartford, 
Connecticut; from there to St. Louis, where he took a special car 
and traveled up through Iowa, St. Paul, out through North Dakota 
and Montana, into Washington; from Seattle down to Port- 
land; from Portland back over the Oregon short line through 
Idaho, down to Ogden, west on the Union Pacific to San Francisco; 
from San Francisco to Los Angeles, and from Los Angeles to Tuc- 
son, Arizona; then back and up to the main line of the Santa Fe 
road, and east over the Santa Fe through Mexico, and up to Trini- 
dad, and La Junta, Colorado, and thence down through Colorado, 
through Nebraska into Kansas, over into southwestern Missouri, 
down to Oklahoma, back to Little Rock, across to Memphis, over 
to Jackson, Tennessee, and down to New Orleans, back up to Mont- 
gomery, Alabama, and then through Georgia to Atlanta, from At- 
lanta over to Raleigh, North Carolina, and thence directly back to 
New York City. 

O. Returning when? 

A. My recollection is, the 2nd of October. 

Q. How long did you remain — did you remain then in New 
York? 

Mr. Andrews: — Were you with him during this entire trip? 

A. No, sir; I arranged the trip. 

Mr. Andrew^s : — Then I move to strike that out. 

Court : — It will be stricken out. 

240 



^Ir. Pound :— O. You knew of the fact that he went and came 
back, do you, or not? 

Mr. Andrews :— That is mere hearsay all the way through as it 
now appears. 

Court :— The testimony will be stricken out, as to what he ar- 
ranged, but in which he did not participate. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Do you know that? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Do you know of his making another trip about that time? 

A. He went to Washington to testify before the Senate Com- 
mittee. 

Mr. Andrews: — Were you there? 

Court :— The fact that he went to Washington may stand. His 
object in going there will be stricken out. 

AIr. Pound:— O. What I want to know is, was there any such 
trip? 

A. Yes, sir, there was. 

O. Did you know of his coming back home? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. About what time did it consume— by the way, did you ac- 
company him on the second trip? 

A. I did. 

g. Then go ahead and tell us what States you were in. 

A. We left New York— I don't remember the exact date; I 
could figure it out. 

O. No, I don't ask you for the date ; where did you go ? 

A. We came to Detroit, and went up through Michigan, stop- 
ping at Flint and Saginaw, and went up through ^lichigan to 
Dufuth and down to Oshkosh and Chicago, and up to Milwaukee, 
and back to Chicago, and back to New York. 

O. From New York what then happened, was there any other 

trip made? 

A. No more trips last fall. 

O. During that trip you are talking about now, where were you 
as to being all the time on that trip in the same train that Mr. 

Roosevelt was? 

A. I was constantly in it; I occupied the stateroom adjoinmg 
his in the private car, and with him at every meal. 

O. That is the only one you were with him on? 

A. Yes, sir. 

241 



O. And the rest of the time you were where? 

A. In New York City. 

O. The time in hetween the speaking, where woukl he be and 
you ? 

A. \'ery much of tliat time he was at work in the rear, the ob- 
servation end of his car, and I was there with him. 

O.' You stated that you were at Duluth with him ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Whereabouts on that day did you dine? 

A. With him in the hotel at Duhith. 

O. Upon that day what addresses did you know of his making, 
if any? 

A. One at Superior, Wisconsin, in the morning. 1 did not go 
to the evening meeting. 

Q. Do you know anything about any convention that he ad- 
dressed ? 

A. There was some doctors who were dining in the hotel, and 
he stopped on his way out to the evening meeting and spoke to 
them. 

O. Now, I ask you how long was that before the time of the 
Milwaukee episode ? 

A. Two or three days; I don't recall. 

O. Now, after that, what, if anything, did you sec of him u[) to 
the present time, how often, I mean? 

A. After what? 

O. After the ]\Iilwaukee meeting, when he was shot? 

A. After Milwaukee I went back to Chicago with him and I 
saw him a few times in the hospital in Chicago, and went to New 
York ou the train with him, and I saw him again in New York 
when he came to speak at Madison Square Garden. 

Mr. Belden: — We object to the statement of facts subsequent 
to the date of the publication of the article complained of, as incom- 
petent. 

Court : — I am inclined to think that objection is good ; what 
have you to say? 

Mr. Pound: — It is simply — I don't deem it very important, but 
I want to show, as I apprehend it, the nearness of this gentleman 
with the plaintiff up to the present time. I only ask it to base the 
next question upon. I am not very tenacious about it. 

CnuR r : — I cannot see that it is material. I will sustain the ob- 
jection. 

242 



Mr. Pound : — O. Xow, from the beginning of your acquaint- 
anceship up to the time — up to the 12th day of October, 1912, what 
can you say, from your observation, as to the extent to which Mr. 
Roosevelt uses Hquors or wines, what is known as spirituous liquor, 
or malt liquor? 

A. I have never seen him use spirituous liquors at all. I have 
seen him occasionally take a glass of wine at dinner. On one oc- 
casion I saw him drink what was called a milk punch at the close 
of a day's campaigning. 

O. I ask you, during all this time, if ever in your life you saw 
the plaintiff in the slightest degree under the influence of liquor? 
A. Never. 

Q. I ask you, during the trips around the country where the 
addressing of meetings was carried on, what the fact was and 
what you saw as to the crowds pressing in to salute the plaintiff? 

Mr. Andrews : — That is objected to as irrelevant and im- 
material. 

Court : — I think we will sustain this objection. I do not see the 
relevency of it. 

Mr. Pound: — All right. 

O. What, if any, precautions were taken for the safety of the 
plaintiff? 

Mr. Andrew : — I object to that as immaterial. 

Court: — I will hear you, Mr. Pound. Explain to me why you 
think that is relevant. 

Mr. Pound: — Why, may it please Your Honor, is it possible 
that I may not show on the occasions where, for instance, a man 
left the car and was going to a stand, if he ever was — whether he 
went alone or whether anybody went wath him — 

Court: — Well, if it is your object to show simply that some- 
body went with him, and you intend, I suppose, to produce the party 
that went with him. 

Mr. Pound : — Yes, or a person who saw the party go with him. 

Court: — We will allow you to show that he was accompanied, 
and if you will, by whom he was accompanied, and stop for the 
time being. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What do you say as to whether he was ac- 
companied ? 

A. He was always accompanied by members of his own partv. 

O. By whom? 

243 



A. I was one; I was on the trip with him, and 1 was one of the 
party myself ; those ordinarily in his party always formed a ring 
aronnd him to assist in his getting from his private car to his auto- 
mobile, from his automobile into his hotel, from his hotel back to 
the automobile to tlrive to the hall where he was to speak. It w^as 
constantly in our minds that he-was — 

Mr. Andrews: — T ask the Court to strike that out. 

Court : — He has not said what was in his mind, but it may be 
stricken out. 

Mr. Pound: — O. Was there any occasion where that was not 
done ? 

A. One. 

O. When? 

A. Milwaukee. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. It is perfectly plain why this 
is being done, and I ask that it be stricken out. 

Court : — Now, ]\Ir. Pound. I will hear you. 

Mr. Pound: — I insist that I am entitled to show that on the only 
occasion when there was not a crowd this man nearly lost his life, 
to show the necessity, and to rebut the claim that there was any 
evidence that could be construed as being help given him on account 
of drunkenness. 

]\Ir. Andrews: — I object to the statement made by counsel, and 
except to his remarks, as prejudicial to the case of the defendant. 
I insist counsel should be restrained from matters of this kind 
which are wholly immaterial to the issue here. 

Court : — I am inclined to agree— the Court will content itself 
by saying that the answer will be stricken out. The question w^as 
answered, 1 think. 

Mr. Pound: — \\"\\\ Your Honor give me an exception? 

Court : — You have an exception. I don't see on what possible 
grounds you would expect to get that testimony in the case. 

Mr. Pound : — O. Will you state w'hat the fact was during those 
journeys of yours as to whether there was any general conversa- 
tion indulged in, either by yourself personally with the plaintiff in 
this suit, or in your presence by the plaintiff in this suit and any 
of the other ])ersons that were on the car? 

A. Oil, constantly, at all hours of the day and evening. 

O. Will you state what the fact is whether wdien you were 

244 



along, if an automobile was used, whether you were one of the 
persons who accompanied the speaker forth and back? 
A. I almost always did. 

O. I ask you how close you would be on those occasions to the 
plaintifif ? 

A. Frequently by the side of him. 

O. And if you were sitting facing each other, would you be 
within arm's length? 

A. Oh, closer than that, because the automobile was always 
packed ; there was always a bunch of us in it. 

O. What can you say as to whether you have ever noticed or 
whether there was a trace of liquor on the breath of the plaintiff? 

A. I never have noticed it. 

Q. I ask you what the fact has been, by your observation, from 
the crowd going from the car to the place of the meeting, with all 
that was done, as to whether the clothing of the plaintiff and of 
those accompanying him, the stress being so great as to tear it or 
not? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — I will hear you. 

Mr. Pound : — A person forcing himself through a crowd is apt 
to be more or less inconvenienced on account of the stress, and who 
ought to be kept, if he is going to make an address, in a position so 
that he does not land breathless at the point where he is going to 
talk for an hour ; that is the idea, bearing on the situation. 

Court : — What bearing has that on the question of whether or 
not the plaintiff was under the influence of intoxicating liquors ? 

]\Ir. Pound: — It has no bearing upon it, excepting this^ that if 
any person was to claim that there was anything of that kind, that 
they may readily have been mistaken. 

Court: — Mr. Pound, now I can see possibly what is in your 
mind, and I can see how this case might turn so that this testimony 
would be proper. But at present it is not proper. 

Mr. Pound: — I think that is right. Your Honor; I think it is 
more properly rebutting evidence. 

Court : — There is no question about that. I think we will sus- 
tain the objection. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. What do you say from your experience with 
the plaintiff and your knowledge of him, during all the time that 
you have known him, as to the kind of man he is as to temperance ? 

245 



Mk. Axdkkws: — ] think tlie witness has heen over that once or 
twice. 

Court : — Yoii may answer it. 
A. He is wholly temi)erate. 

CROSS-EXAM I N ATI ON. 

Mr. Belden : — O. You have stated that in March, 1912, yoti be- 
came connected with what yoti call the Roosevelt National Com- 
mittee ? 

A. Yes. 

O. Will you state to the jury what you mean by that committee, 
what it was for, and what it was ? 

A. It was a committee organized for the purpose of forming 
and handling a campaign for the nomination for the presidency of 
Colonel Roosevelt by the Republican Party. 

Q. And that campaign to seciu"e his nomination for the office 
of president on the Republican ticket continued imtil the National 
Convention in June ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. And you were connected with it and participated in that 
work all of that time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Following that convention, how soon was the Progressive 
Party organized ? 

A. At the National Convention held in Chicago on August 5th 
and succeeding days. 

O. And then this other committee, this National Committee of 
the Progressive Party was formed, w^as it? 

A. Yes, sir, it was formed provisionally during the early weeks 
after the Republican Convention, and then it was formed regularly 
and permanently at the Progressive National Convention. 

O. And you became an officer, or a member of that committee 
and one of its officers ? 

A. Not a member of the committee, except as secretary of the 
committee. 

Q. Mr. Roosevelt became the candidate of the Progressive 
Party for president of the I'nited States, did he not? 
A. Yes, sir. 

246 



Q. And then you were engaged in the Avork of furthering his 
campaign for that office up until the November election, 1912? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were engaged in that all of the time, were you not? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. How many principal parties were there in the field in that 
campaign ? 

Mr. Pound: — I object to that as immaterial to this issue. 
Mr. Belden : — It is cross-examination. 

Court:— Even so, that does not give you a license; why is it 
material ? 

Mr. Belden :— Here is a witness with a particular knowledge of 
those facts, and I propose to show by him that the campaign was 
in progress, and that great public — 

Court : — I get the point. Go on and take the answer. 

Mr. Belden : — Q. How many principal parties were there in 
the field in that campaign? 

A. I should say that would depend on what you call principal. 

Q. Oh, Mr. Davis, there were the three parties each of which 
polled a large vote, were there not? 

A. I don't recall the — 

Mr. Pound:— I object to that unless he can show what the 
vote is. 

Court: — Mr. Pound, let us not get nervous; counsel is entitled 
to show on cross-examination anything which is material to his case. 
Under the pleadings here it is proper for the defendant to show 
that there were other parties and that he took one side and the 
plamtiff took another; I suppose counsel is endeavoring to show 
that situation. 

Mr. Belden : — That is it exactly. 

Mr. Pound :— The reason I object, I don't care any other way 
excepting I don't want this question thrown in here to appeal to ' 
men's hates and prejudices. If I attempt to drag a question in here 
to appeal to the prejudices or passions, counsel then may object. ) 

Court:— Just a moment. The defendant, Mr. Pound, is en- 
titled to show that he was a member of another party, and that that 
party was seeking to elect somebody else at that election ; that is 
what counsel is seeking to do. 

Mr. Pound : — Please give us an exception. 

Mr. Belden:— Q. You know that the Democratic Party, for 
example, had a ticket in the field in that campaign ? 

247 



A. The Democrats, the Progressives, the Repubhcans, the Pro- 
hibition Party, and the Sociahst Party had tickets in the field. 

O. And it is true, is it not, that that campaign aroused great 
pubhc interest and feehng throughout the country? 

Mr. Pound: — I object to that; that is a self-evident fact. 

Court : — That is the very reason why you should not take up 
the time of the Court in objecting to it. You have an exception; 
take the answer. 

^\r. Pound: — I want an exception to that, and an exception to 
the statement also, may it please your Honor. 

Court : — Yes. 

]\Ir. Belden: — O. It is true, is it not, that that campaign 
aroused great public interest and feeling throughout the country? 

A. I believe so, although the vote cast was small. 

Q. You mean the total vote? 

A. The total vote was a small vote. There seemed to be great 
excitement and interest, but not the usual number of men voted. 

Q. In that campaign it is true, is it not, that Mr. Roosevelt car- 
ried the state of Michigan? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Do you know as matter of fact that Mr. Roosevelt carried 
the county of Marquette? 

A. I don't know^ 

Q. You don't know anything about that? 

A. Xo. 

O. Your work from the first of March until the election in 
November, and your entire time was in the direction of securing 
first, the nomination of Mr. Roosevelt by the Republican Party, and 
then, his election on the Progressive ticket, w^as it not!' 

A. Almost whoUv, ves, sir. 



Mr. Pound: — Q. One question that I overlooked. You said 
there was a time that your sleeping apartment adjoined that of the 
plaintiff in this suit on one of those trips? 

A. Yes. 

O. I want to know of you whether on that trip you were close 
enough to the plaintiff in this suit to know first, whether he took 
any liquor whatsoever, and if so. what, of your own knowledge? 

A. I think I was. 

248 



O. Could he have become under the influence of Hquor without 
your knowing it? 

A. It was impossible for him to do it. 
(Adjournment.) 



Nine o'clock Saturday Morning, May 31, 1913- 
JosoPH E. Bayliss, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 

as follows : — 

Mr. Pound:— Q. Your full name? 

A. Joseph E. Bayliss. 

Q. Where do you live? 

A. Sault Ste. Marie. 

Q. How long have you lived there ? 

A. Thirty-five years. 

O. How far from Marquette is Sault Ste. Marie? 

A. One hundred and fifty-five miles. 

O. Are you a member of any branch of the state government 

at the present time? 

A. I am a member of the state legislature, in the house. 

Q. Were you living in Sault Ste. Marie on or about the 25th 
of October, or in the month of October, 1912? 

Q. I show you an article and ask you to look at it and tell me 
if you ever saw it before, or a copy of it? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Where did you see it? 

A. I received one through the mail. 

O. About what time, with relation to the date of this? 

A. To the best of my recollection it was two or three days after 
the publication of it. 

O. This is Saturday, October 12, 1912. Were you a subscriber 

of this paper? 
A. I was not. 
Q. Have you ever been? 
A. I have never been. 

Q. That is the only copy you have received? 
A. The only one. 
O. Had you sent for it, or had you known of its being sent to 



you ? 



A. I had not. 

249 



Emlen Roosevelt, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

Mr. Pound: — Q. You are ]Mr. Enilen Roosevelt, are you? 

A. I am. 

O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Fifty-six. 

Q. Are you in anywise related to the plaintiff in this case? 

A. I am a first cousin of Theodore Roosevelt. 

O. During your boyhood, and his, will you tell the jury how 
close your families lived together? 

A. The father of Theodore Roosevelt and my father were 
brothers associated in business together, and there was a great deal 
of intimacy between the families. We lived within a few blocks 
of one another in the city of Xew York and were constantly asso- 
ciated. 

O. Did that continue substantially up to the time of his arriv- 
ing at the age of twenty-one? 

A. It did; we were brought closer together every year, before 
he was twenty-one; we had our country residence within a few 
hundred yards of one another at Oyster Bay. 

O. While he was an assemblyman did you see him frequently? 

A. I did; I was with him in the first political organization in 
Morton Hall, which he joined after leaving college. 

Q. That is, you were both members? 

A. We were both members. 

Q. What is the fact, whenever the plaintiff was in New York, 
either visiting or on business, or at his home, since that time to 
the present, what has been your association with him? 

A. They have been most intimate. When he was in the city of 
New York from 1873 for a number of years we lived in adjoining 
houses, and we were in and out of one another's houses daily; 
in the country we had our homes within a few hundred yards and 
we spent most of our days together. As we grew a little older, 
and he began his hunting trips, I joined him, and was often with 
him both night and day for weeks at a time, sleeping in the same 
tent and doing the same work. When he became police commis- 
sioner I saw a great deal of him ; 1 went down to Montauk Point, 
and with him when he returned from the Spanish War; I was with 
him two or three times when he was governor of the state of New 
York at the executive mansion in Albany. I was with him when 

250 



he was sworn in as vice-president of the United States and I was 
with him when he was sworn in as president of the United States 
in the fall after the death of President McKinley. I was staying 
in the White House with him when he was sworn in as president 
after having been elected president of the United States. I stayed 
with him in Washington at the White House several days each 
winter. I was with him at a great many public functions, dinners 
and receptions. I was with him at the time that he had the peace 
meeting of the Japanese and Russians, and made several trips with 
him of several days' duration on the Mayflower. 

Q. The Mayflower was what kind of a boat? 

A. The Mayflower was a government boat put at his service. I 
have been in a position to know every detail of his public and 
private life ever since he was a boy. 

O. I think impliedly you have covered it, but I want to ask you 
whether you have had meals at his house and he at your house, 
and if so, about how frequently? 

A. It would be difficult to state how frequently, as it was our 
constant custom to be in one another's house at meals, as well as 
attending dinners by invitation. 

O. Was his house used as freely as your own? 

A. It was ; I would go in and out day or night. 

Q. Tell the jury if there is any other man on earth that you 
have been as intimate with as with him. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

Court : — The objection is sustained. 

Mr. Pound : — Very well. Note an exception. 

Q. I ask you this question, from your intimacy and your knowl- 
edge of the plaintiff, by association, by sight, by the exercise of 
every sense you have, of smell or other method, what can you say to 
this jury as to the habits of the plaintiff in relation to sobriety? 

A. I will swear that never while I have been with Theodore 
Roosevelt was it possible for me to believe — 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that. 

A. Was it possible that he was in any way under the influence 
of wine or liquor of any character. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Have you ever seen him under the influence 
of a narcotic or anything of that kind? 

A. Never. 

Q. What has been your business during your life? 

A. I am a banker. 

251 



O. Connected with what bank? 

A. I am a banker of the firm of Roosevelt & Son, and Mr. 
Theodore Roosevelt's father and my father, and my grandfather, 
my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather were mem- 
bers of that firm. 

Q. You have been the managing director of that firm for a 
number of years ? 

A. Fifteen years I have been the head of that firm. 

Q. Where is that situated? 

A. Our office at present is in 30 Pine Street, in the city of New 
York. 

O. I ask you from your knowledge what can you say as to the 
habits of the plaintiff as to profanity? 

A. I can say that he has one of the cleanest mouths — 

O. Does he indulge in it or not? 

A. He does not. 

Q. One other question and I am done. What can you say of 
his manner of speech with reference to obscenity? 

Court : — That is not in issue here. 

yiR. Pound : — Does Your Honor exclude it ? 

Court : — I do. 

]\Ir. Pound: — Please give me an exception. 

Court : — You may have it. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

:Mr. Belden: — Q. I think you have said that you are a cousin 
of the plaintiff in this case? 

A. I did so say. 

Q. And that your family relations with him are and have been 
intimate? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And that your social, business and other relations with him 
have also been close and intimate ? 

A. They have. 



William Loeb, Jr., sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified 
as follows : 

^^Ir. Pound: — Q. What is your full name? 

252 



A. William Loeb, jr. 

O. How old a gentleman are } " ^ 

A. Forty-six. 

O. What is your present occupation? 

A. My official business is collector of customs of the district 
and port of New York. 

Q. How long have you been collector of customs of the port of 
New York? 

A. Since March 4, 1909, appointed by President Taft. 

O. Where were you born ? 

A. Albany, New York. 

O. About how long did you make your home in the vicinity of 
Albany ? 

A. For thirty-four years. 

O. Do you know of the plaintiff in this suit, Theodore Roose- 
velt ? 

A. I do. 

O. When did you become in personal touch or acquaintance 
with him ? 

A. At Albany, the first time he became governor. 

O. Of course you knew him by reputation before that? 

A. I did. 

O. During his term of office as governor of the State of New 
YoT-k, will you state to the jury whether you had any official con- 
nection with the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I did. I was first his stenographer, and afterwards stenog- 
rapher and private secretary to the governor. 

O. After the plaintiff' in this suit became vice-president did you 
see him during that time? 

A. I did ; I was his private secretary as vice-president. 

O. When he was promoted by the occasion of the demise of 
President ]\IcKinley, to the office of president, did you continue 
with him? 

A. I did, first in the capacity of assistant secretary to the presi- 
dent, and about a year afterwards as secretary to the president. 

Q. During the entire seven and a half years that he executed 
the functions of the office of president of the United States, did 
you hold that position? 

A. I did. 

O. Now tell the jury by reason of your connection with him, 

253 



how frequently would you see him, as governor and as vice-presi- 
dent and as president? 

A. I saw him practically all of his waking hours, both while at 
Albanv, and I also accompanied him on all his trips about the 
country. 

O. Where is your residence now? 

A. New York City. 

O. \\'ill you state whether you have been at breakfast or any 
other meals and at other times with the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. Since he was president? 

O. Since the governorship, your first acquaintance with him? 

A. Oh, yes, frequently. 

O. During the presidency, what was the fact? 

A. I frequently lunched at the White House and dined at the 
White House; I have dined with him since the presidency and 
lunched with him. and he has lunched at my house, at Seagate, my 
summer house. 

O. During that period of time which now covers from the gov- 
ernorship to the present time, how many years, about .' 

A. Almost fifteen years. 

O. During that time has the degree of intimacy that came be- 
tween you continued? 

A. It has. 

O. ^^'as your intimacy with him confined to work days of the 
week, irrespective of Sundays or holidays, or has it continued 
pretty nearly every day, when you were the secretary? 

A. During the presidency I saw him every day, Sundays and 
holidays included, and worked with him every day. 

O. Will you tell us what times, during his administration, it was 
that the president began work, and how late he worked, in his spe- 
cial duties ? 

A. The president came to the executive offices shortly after nine 
o'clock in the morning, and worked up until half past one. 

O. \\'hat was he doing then ? 

Mr. Axdkkws: — I don't see that the exact work he was at 
would be material. 

Court : — Take the answer. 

]\1r. Pound: — Q. As matter of fact, from the time he began 
work until he went off work, how long were you with him ? 

A. I stated I was in touch with him all his waking hours. That 
would perhaps be from nine o'clock in the morning until midnight. 

254 



Q. What has been the degree of your personal knowledge of 
him, since his ceasing to be president? 

A. I have seen him occasionally. 

O. I ask you from your observation of the plaintiff in this suit 
by every sense you have, what can you say to this jury as to his 
habits during the past fifteen years as to sobriety ? 

A. I should say that he is as temperate a man as I know. 

O. What have you seen, and to what extent has he indulged in 
the use of liquors, either spirituous or malt, including wine of all 
kinds ? 

A. Why. he has occasionally, when on trips — I have ordered 
for him a little white wine and Apollinaris water, and he has taken, 
at the suggestion of Dr. Rixey and Dr. Stokes, who accompanied 
him on these trips, some milk punch, about as intoxicating as grape 
juice. I should say. 

Q. Now I ask you whether in your acquaintanceship with him 
you have observed the slightest evidence in him of any spirituous 
or alcoholic or malt stimulants? 

A. Never. 

O. Was there such a thing as the "shaving hour," as it was 
sometimes called? 

A. At the executive office, yes. 

O. Where would you be with reference to the president at that 
time ? 

A. Almost always with him while he was being shaved and 
taking up business matters with him. 

O. What can you say if during that time or any time you have 
ever perceived the odor of liquor upon the plaintiff" in this suit? 

A. There never was any opportunity to get the odor, for him to 
get the odor. There was no such condition. 

O. W^as there a time in the afternoon that there was a suspen- 
sion of work temporarily for exercise? 

A. After lunch the president returned to the executive ofiice and 
dictated correspondence and signed various State papers, then about 
four o'clock he would take his exercise, a long walk, a horseback 
ride, or play tennis, and then after exercising would again return 
to the executive office and we would work, probably from six o'clock 
until the dinner hour. 

O. Have you ever accompanied him on any of these exercising 
trips of his? 

A. No, sir ; I had work to do. 

255 



O. With reference to the custom while the plaintiff was presi- 
dent, did you know of the fact of there being what is known as 
State dinners given? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did you know anything about receptions being held? 

A. I have. 

Q. Who would have the supervision as to what was consumed 
and seeing that it was in proper shape? 

A. Everything at the White House was under my general direc- 
tion. 

Q. Have you attended those dinners yourself? 

A. I have. 

O. I will ask you to what extent he indulged himself in the way 
of drinking liquor at any of those receptions or State dinners? 

A. He has occasionally taken a little champagne, maybe a glass. 

O. How manv glasses to your knowledge has he ever taken at 
any one time? 

Mr. Andrkws: — Did the witness watch to see? 

]\Ir. Pound: — O. I am only asking for your personal knowledge, 
without being a detective or sleuth t 

A. One or two glasses of champagne. 

O. At the adjournment of Congress in the spring, did the presi- 
dent remain through the hot summer, during his administration? 

A. Immediately on adjournment of Congress the president and 
his family went to their summer place at Oyster Bay. 

O. While at Oyster Bay on those occasions, where were you? 

A. I was located at Oyster Bay, and visited him every day. 

O. So that your experience and observation extended to Oyster 
Bay as well as the capital? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. The entire year around? 

A. And during the governorship as well, and vice-presidency. 

O. Was the condition as to sobriety, did it extend and was it of 
the same character that you have already described? 

A. Exactly. 

O. Now, then, in reference to his trips, what if anything did 
you have to do with the preparation of marking them out or plan- 
ning them? 

A. T arranged all trips. 

O. What if any trips were you upon with him around the 
country ? 

256 • 



I 



A. All his trips. 

Q. What do you say as to those trips, as to the consumption of 
liquor by the plaintiff in this suit, according to your observation? 
Mr. Andrews: — Unless JNIr. Loeb was with him all the time — 
A. Always, continually. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. What do you say as to what the consumption 
of liquor was by the plaintiff as president on those trips, immoderate 
or moderate or what? 
A. Strictly moderate. 

Q. Can you give me a limit, first as to what kind liquor, if at all, 
was used by the plaintiff on the trips — I mean away from the table 
at the White House? 

A. On the trips, after a very exhausting day of speaking, be- 
fore retiring the president would have a little milk punch with a 
spoonful of brandy in it ; and I may say that he even took this upon 
my urging, because I thought he needed a little stimulant. 

Q. At breakfast, for instance, what liquor did he use, if any? 
A. None. 

Q. At dinner, what liquor would be used, if any? 
A. On these trips we were going through a course of luncheons 
and banquets continually. 

Q. I don't mean that way; I mean when you were traveling? 
A. When we were on the car ? 
Q. Yes. 

A. Occasionally there would be a little wine and Apollinaris for 
the president. 

Q. To an extent that would be in anywise intoxicating on any- 
body? 

A. To an absolutely harmless extent. 
Q. At dinner or lunch would there be ? 

A. Very seldom, while there would be no wine served at 
luncheon, a little white wine and Apollinaris occasionally, and oc- 
casionally champagne at dinner, but in very moderate quantities. 

Q. I ask you, from your acquaintanceship with the plaintiff for 
the last fifteen years as to whether he could have gotten under the 
influence of liquor, not once, but repeatedly drunk, without your 
knowing it ? ^ 

A. It would have been absolutely impossible. 
Q. Did he get in a state described by the word, either once or 
many times? 

A. He did not. 

257 1 



O. What do you say if anything about his consumption of 
whiskey ? 

A. He never uses whiskey. I have offered it to him and he re- 
fused to take it. on occasions when I thought he needed it as 
medicine. 

O. What about beer, porter or ale ; does he consume them ? 

A. I never saw him take any malt liquor. 

O. Did you accompany him to what was known as the Cannon 
dinner, celebrating the seventieth birthday of the then Speaker? 

A. I did. 

O. Just kindly tell me where you started from and briefly de- 
scribe the trip until you returned? 

A. The original record of the White House shows that. We 
have the record here. 

Mr. Andrews : — That would speak for itself. 

Court : — Have you the record with you ? 

A. ]Mr. Sloan has the record. 

Mr. Andrews: — I don't object to the witness testifying about 
what happened. 

A. The president and myself and Mr. Sloan, the secret service 
man, left the White House at 9 45, and returned at 1 1 :20. 

Mr. Pound:— Q. A. M. or P. M.? 

A. P. M. I want to state that the report was kept by the chief 
usher of the White House, who noted every time the president left 
the White House, and noted all callers at the White House. 

O. The point I call your attention to now is, did you accom- 
pany the president from the White House to the place of the hold- 
ing of this dinner? 

A. I did ; I called for him and took him to the reception. 

O. Where was that dinner held? 

A. At the Arlington ; it was a reception at the Arlington. 

Q. During the time the president was in attendance, were you 
there also? 

A. I was practically at his elbow. 

Q. When he left, where were you? 

A. I accompanied him. 

Q. Where did you leave him that night? 

A. At the White House. 

Q. Now then, when he went there in your company, what can 
vou say as to whether the plaintiff was sober or not? 

A. Absolutely sober. 

258 



I 



O. During the time he was at the reception of Speaker Can- 
non's, what do you say as to what, if any, hquor he drank? 

A. I saw the Speaker take him to the refreshment table, and 
they had a glass of champagne, and the president, I think, toasted 
the Speaker on his birthday. 

O. About how long did you remain at the reception? 

A. We must have remained there about an hour. 

Q. Can you say whether there were any liquors consumed by 
the president beyond this champagne? 

A. I don't think there was ; after toasting the Speaker, and of 
course circulating about the room talking with various statesmen 
and others there. 

O. And the Arlington would be about how far from the White 
House ? 

A. Oh, a matter of five minutes from the White House. 

O. Did you walk? 

A. We drove. 

O. And after you got back to the White House what did you 
do, if anything excepting saying good-night and separating? 

A. It is quite likely that we went to the office and did some 
work. 

O. Do you remember? 

A. I have no clear recollection of just what we did; that was a 
usual thing for the president and myself. 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment ; I object to that. 

Court : — Strike out the latter part of the answer. 

Mr. Pound: — O. I hand you a paper to refresh your recollec- 
tion on that subject. 

A. This is a report made to me by the chief usher at the White 
House. 

Q. Then you don't know anything about that of your personal 
knowledge except this is a report kept by the usher as a matter of 
official duty? 

A. By the usher at the White House. 

O. Now, from the time of leaving the Arlington reception and 
going to the White House and during the time you were bidding 
the plaintiff adieu, and at the time you left him, will you describe 
to the jury whether he was under the influence of liquor in any 
respect ? 

A. Absolutely not. 

O. By the way, can you tell when you returned? 

259 



A. I can, yes sir, 1 1 :20. 

Q. You say yourself and the plaintiff and Air. Sloan were to- 
gether at that time. Did that form your party? 

A. Yes, sir. We left Mr. Sloan at the reception. 

Q. He did not go back with you? 

A. No. 

Q. You and the plaintiff went home alone? 

A. Mr. Sloan came from the same county the Speaker did, and 
he had some friends, some home folks, and he asked me permission 
to stay, and I gave him permission to stay, and I accompanied the 
president alone to the White House. 

Q. Do you remember w^hether the plaintiff at that time had any 
kind of refreshment besides liquid? 

A. I think he took a biscuit of some kind. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial. 

Court : — Oh, that cannot do any harm ; we will let it stand. 

Mr. Andrews : — No harm, of course. 

Mr. Pound : — I am through with the witness now. We are 
wasting time. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

j\Ir. Andrews : — Q. You had to perform rather arduous duties 
at the White House? 

A. Somewhat. 

Q. A busy man ? 

A. Quite. 

Q. How many stenographers did you have under you ? 

A. About twenty. 

Q. You gave them their work and had to look after it? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And did that every day? 

A. Every day, Sundays included. 

Q. I suppose you were with the stenographers some " 

A. Not much, because I did no dictating. 

Q. At Washington you didn't live at the White House ? 

A. I may explain the system at the \Miite House. I did no 
dictating. My memorandum was all in shorthand, and passed on 
to the stenographers, so it was not necessary for me to see the 
stenographers. 

260 



O. You simply took it in shorthand and handed it over to them? 

A. Yes, sir ; they read my notes. 

Q. You examined the work after it was returned to you? 

A. Oh, yes. 

Q. Did you Hve at the White House? 

A. No sir. 

Q. Where did you hve? 

A. In Rhode Island Avenue, Washington. 

Q. About how far from the White House? 

A. About ten minutes' walk. 

O. About how many blocks? 

Q. About ten blocks. 

Q. Did you go home to your luncheon? 

A. Yes, sir ; I never walked ; I always rode, to make time. 

Q. You began at nine o'clock in the morning? 

A. Before nine. 

Q. Did you accompany tiie president, or Mr. Roosevelt on his 
African trip? 

A. Xo, sir. 

Q. So that your close connection ceased with the trip? 

A. It did, yes, sir. 

O. And you became the collector of the port of New York ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Did that take all your time? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. You were there at that place, were you? 

A. Still collector. 

O. You never have been with the president or with Colonel 
Roosevelt on any other campaign trip since? 

A. None of his trips since. 

Q. You know nothing personally about what has happened since ? 

A. I have seen him occasionally. 

O. I know, but on these long trips? 

A. I know nothing about the trips. 

Q. So the times you know of have been occasional times in New 
York? 

A. I called on him at the Outlook office, and his home at Saga- 
more Hill, and he has been at my house at Seagate. 

O. And he has been at lunch with you? 

A. Yes, and we served wine at that lunch. 
Q. You served wine? 

261 



A. Yes, but the colonel didn't take any; it was a great dis- 
appointment to my wife. 

O. Perhaps it wasn't very good wine? 

A. It was very good. 

Mr. Andrews : — I think that is all. 



Frank H. TyRiiK, sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follow^s : 

Mr. Pound: — O. Your full name is Frank H. Tyree? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where do you live ? 

A. Huntington, West Virginia. 

O. How long has that been your home? 

A. Twenty-three years, outside of four years I was in Wash- 
ington. 

O. Where were you born ? 

A. Kentucky. 

O. How long did you live in the State of Kentucky? 

A. Seventeen years. 

O. You are not very far away from the State line now? 

A. About forty-six miles. 

Q. Have you held, and if so, what position in either the United 
States Government service or the service of your State or county? 

A. I was chief of police in the city of Huntington for three 
years and seven months ; I am at the present time United States 
Marshal for the Southern District of West A'irginia. 

O. How long have you been I'nited States Marshal for the 
Southern District of West X'irginia? 

A. It will be eight years the 12th of next January. 

O. Were you connected with the president, and if so, in what 
capacity ? 

A. I was appointed to the Secret Service July i, 1901. 
0. And you remained with him how long? 
A. 1 was detailed as one of the Secret Service agents to guard 
the president while he made the first trip that Colonel Roosevelt 
made after he was president, the latter part of October of that 
same year, to P)onnington, Connecticut, and Xew Haven, Connecti- 
cut, something like three days : the next trij) with Colonel Roose- 
velt was in January. 

262 



O. Do yon remember before that, do you remember going to 
Jamestown ? 

A. In January, 1902, and remained there something hke a week, 
remained there with the party, looking after him, and at Charles- 
ton, South Carolina, in April, I think, of that year — no, July 4th — 

Q. How long was that trip ? 

A. Something like three or four days ; I don't remember ; maybe 
five. July 14th I was sent to Oyster Bay as a member of the Secret 
Service guard there, and remained from that on until December 

13- 1905- 

Q. And your business in this Secret Service was what? 

A. To look after the personal safety of the president of the 
United States, to keep off cranks and annoyances of all kinds. 

O. When was your permanent detail, if it ever came? 

A. I was part of the presidential guard from July 14th up until 
something near the middle of October, 1902, when I was made the 
personal Secret Service guard in charge, the only one man at that 
time in Washington. At Oyster Bay there was something like eight 
men, and from that on until December 13, 1905, I was the man in 
charge, and after a few months they gave me another man, and 
after about a year and a half I think there were three that made 
trips. 

O. After you became in personal charge in reference to your 
duties as to the president, how long did that continue? 

A. It continued from October, 1902, until December 13, 1905. 

Q. And then what? 

A. I was appointed United States Marshal for the Southern 
District of West A'irginia. 

O. How close in touch did you come with the plaintiff when he 
was president of the United States? 

A. Oh, our duties were to be right elbow to elbow with him 
at all times, especially away from Washington, and kept in close 
touch with him while in Washington, going with him everywhere 
he went, to banquets, to church, to theatres, and on walks. 

O. You say you were the sole person delegated for that purpose 
in Washington, and then there were two? 

A. That was at the White House proper : whenever we made 
any trips there was another man that was along with us, and sev- 
eral joined at different places. 

Q. When you had three, what did you do, were you all on duty 
at one time, or did you have watches ? 

263 



A. We were on duty ; \vc would go at nine o'clock in the morn- 
ing, or sometimes go earlier, in case the president would decide to 
go out sometimes earlier than that for a walk, or go to an art 
gallery or something of that kind, and our duties were to be there 
before he came to the executive office, and remain, one of us at all 
times. 

O. You say at Oyster Bay there were eight? 

A. At Oyster Bay there were eight. I was detailed around the 
president's home at all times. 

O. At any rate, state how many trips you made with the presi- 
dent ? 

A. I made every trip with Colonel Roosevelt during that time 
until I left, except the trip I think to Antietam, which took one or 
two days. 

O. Xow I ask you what the truth is in reference to the condi- 
tion of the plaintiff during the time that you were in touch with 
him and his personal guard, as to his sobriety? 

A. Perfectly sober. 

Q. Did you see anything, from his walk, action, demeanor, any- 
thing that Avould indicate that he was in the slightest degree under 
the influence of liquor? 

A. 1 should say not. It made me go some on these walks, and 
1 am about ten years younger than he is. 

O. Tn traveling? 

A. Yes. 

O. At public receptions how close to the president were you? 

A. At all receptions I was right at his left at all times, elbow 
to elbow with him, and at any time outside of Washington ; T was 
the first man that alighted from the train always, and was right 
with him at all times. 

Q. After you became United States Marshal you didn't see him 
so much ? 

A. Xo, sir; I saw him several times; I met him on his return 
from Africa, representing the governor of West \'irginia. 

Q. Did you see him during the year 1912 at all? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Where did you see him? 

A. In Huntington, West \'irginia. 

O. At any other place besides Huntington? 

A. Well. I was at Chicago for eighteen days. 

264 



Q. Well, that was kind of exciting? 

A. Ten days of it was. 

O. What evidence of the consumption of liquor did you see on 
the plaintiff during that time? 

A. Not a bit ; I would have known if there had anything gone 
in there, because I was kind of looking to him while I was there at 
headquarters. 

O. At his meals, or at any time what liquor did you see him 
consume during those ten exciting days ? 

A. None whatever. 

O. What is the fact as to whether it was one of your duties, 
when the president was going from place to place, to break the way ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. In going through a crowd how did you walk, slowly or how ? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial. 

Court: — The objection will be sustained. 
• Mr. Pound : — Note an exception, and I will pass on to some- 
thing else. 

Court : — You have an exception. The only object here is to 
show that the witness at times was very close to Colonel Roosevelt. 
Whether he opened the way to go through a crowd, or to go through 
a hallway, or into a church or theatre, it matters not. The question 
is, how close he was to the plaintiff. 

Mr. Pound : — Here is the point. Your Honor — 

Court : — W^e will not waste any more time. The objection is 
sustained. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Now, when you were in Chicago, how close 
would you be to him, and during what parts of the day? 

A. Well, sir, I would join him the very moment he came out 
of his room and go with him to headquarters, and remain until he 
returned, each and every trip he made. 

Q. During your entire acquaintanceship, how many drinks of 
whiskey have you seen him take? 

A. I never have seen Colonel Roosevelt take a drink of whiskey 
during that time. 

Q. Outside of the milk he has taken, what liquor have you seen 
him drink, if any? 

A. I have seen him drink a little Sauterne, mixed with White 
Rock or Apollinaris ; I have seen him drink a little champagne at 
public banquets. 

Q. By a little, what do you mean, how many glasses? 

265 



A. 1 have seen him take a glass of the Sauterne, one of those 
high-ball glasses, and take a little White Rock and wine and pour 
it in there and make a high-ball of it, I would call it. 

Q. A wine high-ball ? 

A. Yes, sir, wdiite wine. 

Q. What I am endeavoring to ascertain, how many of those 
would he have? 

A. I seldom saw him take more than one of the Sauterne. 

O. W^as it a part of your business to know what he both ate 
and drank ? 

A. Away from the White House. 

Q. Do you remember, for instance, on one occasion being w^ith 
the plaintiff when he was in Milwaukee? 

A. Yes, sir, in 1903, in April or the tirst of May, 1 can't re- 
member the date exactly. 

O. \\'hat happened there, was there a banquet given there ? 

A. He had a sort of reception, I believe, or something at some 
club, and from that to the Soldiers' Home ; we were there probably 
three-quarters of an hour or maybe an hour, and during that time 
there was quite a crowd there. 

Q. What was done in the way of drink? 

A. Well, some members of the club right close around the 
colonel insisted on him drinking beer. He says, "T don't drink 
beer." They said. "We would ask that you take a sip of this beer, 
the beer that made ^lilwaukee famous." He just took a swallow 
of it, and passed it away. 

Q. Is that all the beer you ever saw him drink? 

A. The only time I ever saw him. 

Q. A\'hat do you say from your observation of him, and his ex- 
hibition of strength and the physical efforts he made under your ob- 
servation, as to whether a man could have performed those things 
that got drunk, and frequently got drunk? 

Mr. Axdrews : — I object to that as immaterial and incompetent. 

Court : — You would hardly expect me to hold that tlie mere 
bulk of a man is of any importance? 

Mr. Pound: — No; here is a man who has seen him at all times 
of day and night, and knows all about it, as well as the man does 
himself: whether from that, if he knows, if he has any opinion. H 
he has not, I have nothing more to say about it. 

Court : — The witness is entitled to answer from his observation 
of the plaintifif, simply whether or not such and such was the case. 

266 



Mr. Pound : — That is all I ask him. 

Q. What do you say from your observation : 
A. As to what? 

Q. As to whether he did get drunk or frequently get drunk ? 
A. Oh, I should say not. 

Q. And I ask you from your intimacy with him, could he have 
gotten drunk, or frequently drunk without your knowing it? 
A. He could not. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

:\Ir. Andrews: — O. You were master of the guard there until 
1905? 

A. I was not master of the guard ; I was part of it. 

Q. You were the guard ? 

A. I was one of them, yes, sir. 

Q. You were the only man for a long time? 

A. I think about from eight to nine months. 

Q. Up to 1905? 

A. No, from 1902 until some time in 1903. 

O. Up to 1905 your time extended? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. From that time on you have been marshal in West \'ir- 
ginia ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. And have during that period never been with :\Ir. Roosevelt 
on any of his extended trips to the West, his campaign trips ? 

A. I have not. 

Q. At the time when you did go, with yourself and Mr. I,oeb 
and the other people, all touching elbows with him, do you see how 
he had a chance at all to move about ? 

A. W'e didn't get in his way ; we stood on each side of him. I 
was directly behind his right elbow and the other man on the other 
side, and :\Ir. Loeb usually right behind going through a crowd or 
anything of that sort. 

O. In the car and at his meals I understand you touched elbows 
with him right along? 

A. No, sir; we always passed back and forth through the car. 
and I was usually in the rear end of the car where he was. 

Q. And at banquets ? 

267 



A. I usually sat right across from him, or in close proximity 
where I could easily get to him if anything — 

O. Watching him every minute? 

A. We tried to. 

Q. You would watch what he had? 

A. I was not watching him, what he would drink, but see who 
would come to him. We had one certain waiter attend him. If any 
other waiter started towards him he would be stopped. We had 
men dressed as waiters. 

O. He did drink champagne sometimes ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. And white wine? 

A. White wine. 

O. Red wine? 

A. I never saw him take a drink of red wine. 

O. You at least were not with him when he drank any red wine ? 

A. Whenever the colonel would probably go to one of these 
private houses — 

O. You attended them in some cases? 

A. Oh, we were right there at his elbows most of the time at 
dinner tables. 



James Slo.\n, Jv... sworn on the part of the plaintiff, testified as 
follows : 

■Mr. Pound : — Q. Where were you born ? 

A. In Illinois. 

Q. In what is known as the Danville district? 

A. Xo, sir ; my parents moved to Danville when T was a year 
old. 

O. How long did you live there? 

A. Ever since. 

O. That is your home yet? 

A. That is my legal residence. I have been away from there 
since 1902. I lived in Washington since 1903. 

Q. Will you just briefly describe what has been your occupa- 
tion since 1903? 

A. I am an agent in the United States Secret Service detailed 
at the White House. 

Q. When was it you first became connected with the White 
House as Secret Service agent? 

268 



A. I was sent to Oyster Bay June 28, 191 3. 

Q. Prior to that time had you had any official experience, had 
you been an officer before? 

A. I had been a deputy sheriff in my own county for five years 
before that. 

Q. Were you ever detailed to take charge, either with somebody 
else or alone, to look after the president ? 

A. I have been in charge of the details since 1905, when Mr. 
Tyree left there. 

Q. Up to when? 

A. Up to the present time. I was four years with Mr. Taft, 
and have been with Mr. Wilson since the 4th of March. 

Q. What are your duties? 

A. To look after the personal protection of the president of the 
United States. 

Q. How did you discharge them, when did you come in touch 
with him in the daytime, and when did you leave him? 

A. I came to the office in the morning when the president comes 
to the office. 

Q. By '*the office," do you mean the executive office? 

A. The executive office. 

Q. Is that in the White House or the capitol? 

A. It is at the Wliite House, about probably three hundred 
feet — two hundred and fifty or three hundred feet from the White 
House proper. There is no office at the capitol. There is a room 
in the capitol assigned to the president of the United States. 

Q. About how far is that from the White House? 

A. About a mile and a half. 

Q. Each being at the end of Pennsylvania Avenue? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. As matter of fact during the time you have been attached 
to the service, how much of the time has the office or room at the 
capitol been made use of? 

A. It is not made use of that I know of, except during the time 
of the closing session of Congress, until Mr. Wilson became presi- 
dent ; he has been up there on one or two occasions since he has 
been president. 

Q. During the administration of the plaintiff in this suit it 
would only be the closing hours of Congress? 

A. The closing hours of Congress. 

269 



Q. And by "the closing hours of Congress," you mean more 
than a day? 

A. No, sir; the president would go up there to sign up the re- 
maining bills that were passed possibly during the last hour of 
Congress. 

O. When the president went away from his home for exercise, 
or devotion, or anything of that kind, what would be your duty in 
respect to that? 

A. I always accompanied him. 

Q. Was that true while the plaintiff was president? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. And was that true all the time he went out, no matter what 
the purpose was ? 

A. It was always true ; I accompanied him everywhere, church 
or dinners, or any exercise he would go out to take ; he used to walk 
a great deal, and he used to go out and take a little trot around the 
lower Potomac Park, and run about two or three miles in the 
evening. 

Q. Were you along with him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. At a reception where were you stationed? 

A. In front of him. 

O. And at dinners ? 

A. ]\Iy position was a little to his left, down in front. 

O. So that you would face him ? 

A. I always faced him. 

Q. About how far would you be from him ? 

A. Probably eight or ten feet. 

Q. What do you know of the custom as to how many of the 
help had anything to do with these banquets, with the i)resident 
personally? 

A. We always knew every one who would have anything to do 
with him, with the waiting or cooking for the president at any 
dinner or banquet. 

O. If any other person approached him what was your duty? 

A. They were stopped. 

Q. When the president left W'ashington, until his return, where 
did you go? 

A. I always accompanied him in the same car. with him all of 
the time. 

270 



O. While he was in Washington you would ge there about what 
time in the morning? 

A. We expected to be in the office, starting at nine o'clock in 
the morning. 

O. And remain with him how late? 

A. Usually until he had gone to bed at night. 

O. Will you tell the jury whether it was a part of your duty 
as to his taking a trip, whether you would know it? 

A. Away from the White House we always knew exactly when 
he was to take a trip. 

Q. In advance? 

A. In advance, yes, sir. 

O. And from the summer of 1903. and during the summer of 
1904 and 1905, what particular part of the day would you be on 
duty ? 

A. The first three summers that I was at Oyster Bay I was on 
night work ; that is, I would either go to work at six o'clock and 
work until one, or go to work at one and work until seven, those 
three summers. 

O. What hour did the president have family dinner? 

A. Generally, I think, at about seven-thirty. 

O. And at the time of having dinner where was your position ? 

A. When I was on what we call the early evening watch, it was 
my duty to be outside of the dining room window where they dined, 
because they left the curtains up ; they used to leave the curtains up 
nights. 

O. Will you tell the jury, from your observation, what you can 
say as to the practice and methods of the plaintiff as president at 
his meals, in the service of wine? 

A. Well. I never have seen any wine or any liquor on the table 
when the family were alone. 

O. Was that also true of Oyster Bay as well as Washington? 

A. Well, at Washington I was in the White House, not at meals, 
but in there during meal hours very often, and I never have seen 
any wine on the table unless there were guests there, wine or liquor 
of any kind. 

O. Now, when it was incumbent upon the president to travel, 
or he did travel, how about you, where did you go? 

A. I traveled also. 

O. What did you do in the way of observation, and how close 
did you keep yourself? 

271 



A. Well, from 1905 until he left the White House I was never 
further than three or four feet away from him at any time when 
we were outside of Washington, except after he had gone to bed 
at night, and then I was in a bed or room on one side of him. 

O. One side of the room he occupied? 

A. The room next to him. 

Q. In going to the larger towns did you have any auxiliary aid? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. How would it be in smaller places? 

A. Well, we always had our own men. 

Q. Did you have any local assistance? 

A. Sometimes in the small towns the police protection would 
be — they would have very few police, and not have any national 
guard in the town, and then it was necessary for us to have more 
of our own men around the president. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether the crowds you would come in 
contact with were large or small? 

A. They were always very large. 

Q. Numbered in hundreds or thousands? 

A. In thousands. 

Q. Just describe your method of going to and from the car; 
who came first? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial and irrelevant. 

Court : — We will take the answer. 

A. Generally Mr. Tyree would go a little ahead of the president, 
the president would come next, and I walked immediately behind 
him. We always had some men to the right and some to the left 
of him. Very often we had, where the police protection was not — 
where they didn't have enough policemen to give us proper police 
protection, we would have to push our way through the crowd; 
sometimes — 

Mr. Andrews : — Does the Court think that this is relevant, how 
hard they pushed? 

Court : — Well, to be consistent we will strike out the answer. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Would there be any personal assistance 
rendered either by you or other Secret Service men going to or 
coming from the car? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as immaterial. 

Court : — It may have a tendency to show how close they were 
to this plaintifif. 

A. Well, very often I would take the colonel's arm, because he 

272 



is very near-sighted, and very often stumble over things ; I would 
take his arm, always at night I did, and very often in the daytime. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Was there any other reason, in reference to 
intemperance, for taking his arm, or simply on account of the sight? 

A. No, sir, only on account of sight. 

O. You have seen the plaintiff drink some wine; to what extent? 

A. I have seen him drink part of a glass of Sauterne, and the 
balance of the glass would be filled with White Rock water or some 
other mineral water; and I have seen him drink one or two glasses 
of champagne at dinner, or public dinners. 

Q. Will you state what is the extreme limit of the use of liquor 
by the plaintiff during your acquaintanceship with him, one or two 
or a dozen glasses ? 

A. I have never seen him drink — 

Court : — At any one time, he means. 

A. I have never seen him drink over two glasses of wine, and 
that is the most I have ever seen him drink of anything. 

j\Ir. Pound :^Q. Were they the ordinary wine glasses? 

A. Yes. 

Q. They were not schooners, or anything of that kind? 

A. No, not at all. 

Q. What is the fact, whether if he had drank any more than 
you have said, following your duty as you understood it, would 
you have known of it? 

A. I would have known. He couldn't possibly have been drunk 
unless I had known it. 

O. It was your duty to watch him carefully. Did you do it? 

A. I did, sir. 

O. Do you know Hon. Joseph Cannon, Speaker of the House of 
Representatives ? 

A. I do, sir. 

O. How long have you known him? 

A. All my life. 

O. Personally a friend and acquaintance of his? 

A. Yes, sir, I lived right across from him all my life. 

Q. Do you remember an occasion of the celebration or a recep- 
tion tendered upon the occasion of his seventieth birthday, at the 
Arlington Hotel ? 

A. I do. 

Q. Did you attend that reception? 

A. Yes, sir. 

273 



O. In conjunction with what? 

A. In conjunction with my work as being with the president, 
and also as having been invited. 

O. ^^'ho formed the group or party that went to the reception 
at the time you did? 

A. The president and Mr. Loeb, his secretary. 

O. Can you tell us about what time — I don't care to a minute — 
but about what time did you first see the president and where did 
you see him on that day? 

A. That night? 

O. Yes. 

A. I saw him about nine-twenty at the Arlington Hotel, at the 
front door. 

O. Did you meet him by detail? 

A. By detail, yes, sir. 

O. Will you kindly tell the jury from your meeting him just 
what you did until you separated? 

A. I met him at the front door; we walked into the Arlington 
and laid our hats aside and went into the reception room and the 
president shook hands with "Uncle Joe" Cannon. We stood and 
talked a few moments, and the head waiter at the Arlington Hotel — ■ 
some one made the suggestion that the president offer a toast to 
Mr. Cannon ; I sent the head waiter after a glass of wine ; he 
brought a glass of wine and the president proposed a toast to Mr. 
Cannon. He had the glass of wine in his hand most of the evening 
after that; after a little while I took him in to shake hands with 
public men who had come in. to be guests at that reception ; he shook 
hands with those people and took up the glass of wine, which was 
partly empty, and held that in one hand and a sandwich in the other 
during the remainder — almost all the time that he was there. 

O. Did you see him depart? 

A. I did. yes, sir. 

Q. Was he under your personal eyesight during the time from 
the time you met him at the door until he left? 

A. He was, from the time I met him at the door when he got 
out of the carriage until I walked to the carriage with him and 
closed the carriage door. 

Q. \\"\\\ you tell the jury whether you know what he took in 
the way of liquid refreshment? 

A. He had that one glass of wine. 

274 



O. Was that wine glass refilled? 

A. No, sir, not at any time. 

Q. So it was but one glass of wine? 

A. One glass of wine. 

O. He did drink that, did he? 

A. Yes, sir, but I don't think he took all of it. 

O. I ask you to tell this jury, during your entire acquaintance- 
ship with the plaintiff in this suit, whether as president or as a 
private citizen, what can you say as to whether you have ever seen 
him in the slightest degree under the influence of any kind of liquor, 
either spirituous or malt? 

A. Never. 

O. What can you say as to whether you ever saw him act 
strange in any way, so that you could judge he was under the in- 
fluence of a narcotic? 

A. Never. 

Q. What can you say, since the time he has ceased to be presi- 
dent, how frequently, if at all, have you come in contact wnth him 
or seen him ? 

A. I have not seen Colonel Roosevelt since he left the White 
House ; I went to the station with him on the 4th day of March ; 
I didn't see him again. 

O. The 4th day of March, 1909? 

A. The 4th day of ]\Iarch, 1909. I didn't see him again until 
he came back from Africa. He came over to Beverly, Massa- 
chusetts, to pay his respects to the president of the United States, 
Mr. Taft; I have not seen him from that time until Saturday I met 
him in New York. 

O. Meeting him in New York for what purpose? 

A. To come here. 

O. Did you come on the same train with him here? 

A. I did, yes, sir. 

O. And have been here ever since? 

A. I have. 

Q. Where have you stayed here? 

A. At the Hotel Marquette. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 
Mr. Belden : — O. How old are you, Mr. Sloan ? 
A. I am thirty-six. 

275 



O. Was thai when you went to Washington to enter the Secret 
Service, when you were twenty-six? 

A. No, I have been in the Secret Service since 1902. 

O. W^iat had been your previous work before you went to 
Washington ? 

A. I was deputy sheriff of \'erniilhon County. Illinois, five 
years. 

O. 1 understand that the period to which yau have testified when 
you were in close relations with the plaintiff was prior to the 4th 
of March, 1909? 

A. Yes, sir, from about the ist of July, 1903, until March 4, 
1909. 

Q. And with the exception of this occasion when he came to 
Beverly, you had not seen him from the 4th of JNIarch, 1909? 

A. Until last Saturdav in New York. 



WiiJ.iA.M P. Sen. \i"Fi- 1.1:1:. sworn on the i)art of the plaintiff, 
testified as follows : 

Mr. Pouno: — O. WHiat is your full name? 

A. William IMudip Schauffiee. 

0. \\'here do you live? 

A. Cleveland, Ohio. 

O. Wlnat is your business? 

A. Traffic manager for M. A. Manna & Company. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff' in this case, Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. I do. 

Q. \\'hen did you first come in i)ersonal touch with him? 

A. On Monday afternoon. May 13, 1912. 

O. \\'hat was then your Inisiness? 

A. I was traffic manager for M. A. Ilannah iS: Company. 

O. How did you come in touch with the plaintiff' at that time, 
and wdiere? 

A. I went to New York on Sunday and met tlie plaintiff on 
Monday and accompanied him through the trip in Ohio, to take 
charge of the train. 

Q. About what time did you leave Xew York? 

A. We left Xew York, I think, at 6:05 P. M. 

276 



O. \\'here were you headed for upon that occasion? 

A. Why, for the trip through Ohio, an eight-day trip. 

O. Where was it you first stopped in Ohio? 

A. We made the first stop at Bellaire on Tuesday morning. 
I\Iay 14th. 

O. How did you go to Bellaire from New York City, over what 
road? 

A. Over the Pennsylvania road. 

O. \A'as there any speaking until you arrived at Bellaire? 

A. No, sir. 

O. Well, Bellaire is situated where? 

A. In the southeast portion of Ohio, on the Ohio River. 

Q. In reference to the city of Wheeling, where is it? 

A. Across the river, across the Ohio River. 

O. About what time in the morning or day or night did you 
reach Bellaire? 

A. We reached Bellaire about 7 :45 A. M. 

O. How much of an address was made by the plaintiff at that 
time ? 

A. Not to exceed ten minutes. 

O. Tell me again what depot did you start from in New York 
Cit}^? 

A. The Pennsylvania railroad depot, the new depot. 

O. On 42nd Street? 

A. Yes. 

O. Upon what part of the train did the plaintiff pass the night? 

A. On a Pullman private car. 

O. Situated in the train where? 

A. The last car in the train. 

O. Where were you during the evening and morning until 7:45, 
upon this Monday night? 

A. I was with the plaintiff' until bedtime. 

O. What time did you retire that night? 

A. To the best of my recollection, about half past ten. 

O. Then you slept where? 

A. In the same car. 

O. How did you pass the time between the time you took the 
train at 7 45 until you retired, conversation or reading or what ? 

A. You mean that evening? 

O. That evening. 

.\. It was in conversation. 

277 



O. And being in conversation how were you standing or sitting 
in relation to the plaintiff, how near him, I mean? 

A. Within three or four feet. 

O. When did you see him in the morning? 

A. W'hen he came out for breakfast. 

O. How long would that be before you arrived at Bellaire ? 

A. I should say about fifteen or twenty minutes before we ar- 
rived at Bellaire. 

Q. If I understand right, you were up before? 

A. Oh, yes. 

O. And at the time you retired the jireceding night, had the 
plaintiff retired, or not? 

A. He had retired, yes, sir. 

O. So that you were up after him and up before him? 

A. Yes. 

O. How was your car stocked, if at all, with liquors? 

A. I had positive instructions from the plaintiff — 

Mr. Andrews: — That is objected to. 

]\Ir. Pound: — Q. What is the fact? 

A. There was no liquor on the car. 

Q. I ask you if you had any occasion to go out, after you 
started, until Bellaire was reached the next morning? 

A. No. 

O. What is the fact as to whether when the plaintiff was not 
in his berth, whether he was within your eyesight? 

A. I want to correct that ; we occupied a compartment car. 

Q. I want to know where you were in relation to where he was 
in the compartment car? 

A. I occui)ied the compartment next to him. 

Q. For sleeping purposes ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. I mean before you went to sleep and after you got up? 

A. In the dining-room. 

Q. W'as there any kind of liquid except water, made us of on 
Monday night or in the morning before breakfast at Bellaire? 

A. Absolutely not. 

Q. Did the plaintiff in this suit indulge in any sort of liquid 
refreshments? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. From Bellaire where did you go? 

A. Bridgeport. 

278 



Q. Bellaire itself is situated how in reference to the Ohio River, 
is it back, or on the river ? 

A. It is on the river. 

Q. Bridgeport would be about how far from Bellaire ? 

A. It is a few miles ; I have a schedule in my pocket, if I can 
use that to refresh my recollection. 

Court: — You may use it to refresh your recollection. 

Mr. Pound:— Q. Where was the address made in Bellaire, 
whether a tail end address ? 
A. No, we went uptown. 

Q. At Bridgeport where was the address made? 
A. At Bridgeport we went uptown. 
O. About how long was the address in Bridgeport? 
A. Not to exceed seven minutes. 

Q. From Bridgeport where did you then go? 

A. Martin's Ferry. 

Q. Where was the address made in Martin's Ferry ? 

A. From the tail end of the car. 

O. How long were you at Martin's Ferry ? 

A. Five minutes. 

Q. Where were you during that time? 

A. Right at his elbow. 

Q. Do you remember an Elk's Hall about a block away from the 
train ? 

A. I do not, no, sir. 

O. From Martin's Ferry where did you go? 

A. To Steubenville. 

Q. How long did you stay there? 

A. We were at Steubenville about twenty-five minutes. 

Q. Where was the speech made from, there? 

A. Made on a platform opposite the court house. 

Q. Just go ahead and enumerate the places and state the time 
where the plaintiff spoke. , 

A. Our next stop was at Wellsville; we stopped there about 
ten minutes; the next stop was at East Liverpool; we stopped 
there about twenty-five minutes. The next stop was at Youngs- 
town ; we stopped there about forty-five minutes. He spoke in the 
opera house there. 

Q. About how long a speech did he make there? 

A. He spoke about thirty minutes. He spoke at Girard for 

279 



five minutes. From Girard he went to Niles and spoke there ten 
minutes, and from Niles he went to Warren and was there ten 
minutes. From Warren we douhled back to Niles and he made no 
stop, but on to Alliance, and we stopped at Alliance about thirty 
minutes : and from Alliance we went into Canton, and he spoke at 
Canton that evening. 

O. In Alliance what part of the thirty minutes was consumed 
in the address? 

A. Practically all. It was a very short distance to go from the 
train up to the square. 

Q. In Canton, how much of an address was made there? 
A. He made the evening speech ; it was about an hour and a 
quarter or an hour and a half. 

O. What is the fact as to whether you were along and what 
part of the day the plaintiff was under your personal inspection? 
A. I was with him from the time he took breakfast until he 
went to bed that night. 

O. Will you tell the jury what, if anything, was consumed in 
the way of liquid refreshment on that day of any kind? 

A. He did not take any liquid refreshments to my knowledge. 
O. I understand that at Canton the evening address w^as the 
finish of that day? 
A. Yes. 

O. Will you kindly go ahead with the next day, and describe it 
in the same way? 

A. We left Canton and went to Cleveland over the Pennsyl- 
vania road. We started out of Cleveland at 6:30 on Wednesday 
morning. May 15th. Our first stop was at Elyria; he spoke from 
the train, at 6:40 in the morning, about a five-minute speech. Our 
next stop was at Norwalk, which was about ten minutes, and the 
next stop was Bellevue, about ten minutes, and the next stop was 
at Sandusky, and he spoke from a platform down the street ; he 
spoke about twenty minutes. The next stop after Sandusky was 
Fremont, which was about ten minutes. The next stop was at 
Fostoria, about ten minutes ; and the next stop was at Findlay ; he 
spoke there about twenty minutes. From Findlay we went to Ken- 
ton, and he spoke there fifteen minutes, ten or fifteen minutes; 
leaving Kenton, the next stop was Bellefontaine ; he spoke there 
fifteen minutes, and the next stop was Urbana ; he spoke there about 
fifteen minutes, and our next stop after that was at Springfield, 

280 



which was a big meeting; in the afternoon he spoke there about 
thirty minutes. 

O. Did you proceed beyond Springfield that day? 

A. Yes, we left Springfield about four o'clock m the afternoon 
and arrived at Xenia, and he spoke there about twenty minutes. 
We arrived at Dayton about 5 130 or 5 40 that evening, and he was 
driven out to the Soldiers' Home where he made a speech before 
we had dinner, and we came back to the car, and he had a big meet- 
ing at Dayton that night at the opera house. 

0. Talking about how long? 

A. The evening speeches usually ran from an hour and a quar- 
ter to an hour and a half. 

Q. Will you tell the jury whether this plaintifif during that time 
was under your personal observation all day? 

A. I was by his side continually from the time we sat down to 
breakfast until he went to bed that night. 

Q. Tell the jury what, if anything, he consumed in the way of 
liquid refreshments that day. 

A. None. 

O. Either spirituous or malt, I mean? 

A. Yes, I assume that. 

Court : — You include wine in your question, so as not to come 
back to that, you understand, witness? 

A. Yes, sir, I assume that. No spirituous liquor. That night 
we went from Dayton to Greenville. That is a small town in the 
extreme southwestern part of the State of Ohio. He spoke at 
Greenville that morning, and we left there at 8 130. This was 
Thursday morning. May i6th. We arrived at Bradford, and he 
spoke there about five minutes. From Bradford we went to Piqua, 
and he spoke there about ten minutes, and from Piqua we went to 
Sidney, and he spoke there about ten minutes ; and from Sidney 
we went to Wapakoneta, and he spoke there about ten minutes. 
From Wapakoneta we moved to Lima, and he spoke there about 
twenty minutes ; from Lima we went to Delphos, and he spoke 
there five minutes ; from Delphos to \^an Wert where he spoke ten 
minutes : from Van Wert to Paulding, where he spoke about ten 
minutes ; from Paulding to Sherwood, where he spoke about ten 
minutes ; from Sherwood to Defiance, and he spoke there fifteen 
minutes. From Defiance to Holgate, which was a very short stop ; 
we were not there over five minutes. From Holgate we went to 
Deshler, where he spoke about five minutes ; from Deshler to North 

281 



Baltimore, where he made a very short stop, not to exceed five 
minutes. From North Baltimore to Galatea, and we were there 
about fifteen minutes, but he didn't speak ; Ave were switching from 
one road to another. From Galatea we moved to Bowling Green, 
where he spoke for five minutes. From Bowling Green we went 
into Toledo, and arrived about 5 130 P. M., where he made his night 
speech. 

]\Ir. Pound: — Q. Under the same conditions that you have de- 
scribed the other meetings were, as to length, about? 

A. I don't know; that's the only speech during the eight days I 
was with him. that I was not at his side. 

O. I ask you what, from your observation, except during the 
time he made a long speech, can you say as to his consumption of 
any liquor, either spirituous or malt? 

A. None whatever. 

Q. Kindly give us the next day. 

A. That night we moved from Toledo to Ironton, over the 
Hocking \'alley and the Norfolk and Western, and he spoke at 
Ironton — we got in there about eight o'clock ; he was due to speak 
at eight o'clock, so all the breakfast he had before he spoke was a 
cup of coffee. He spoke at Ironton, and from Ironton we went to 
Portsmouth, and between those two stations was where we had 
breakfast; and at Portsmouth he spoke about twenty minutes. 
From Portsmouth he went to Waverly, and stopped there not to 
exceed seven minutes. From Waverly he went to Chillicothe, and 
spoke there fifteen minutes. From Chillicothe to Hamden, and he 
spoke there five minutes. From Hamden to Wellston, and he was 
there about ten minutes at Wellston; and from Wellston to Jack- 
son ; we stopped at Jackson. We were scheduled to stop there only 
fifteen minutes, but while he was speaking the officials of the rail- 
road tried to turn the train so it would be headed right in going 
north, and getting it to the Hocking Valley road — 

O. You say turned the train, so the jury will understand it, to 
turn it on a railroad? 

A. Yes. 

O. In turning the train your engine was derailed? 

A. It was derailed, and after he spoke we came back in a 
carriage to the depot and the train was not there; and in order to 
keep him away from the crowd and the annoyance of the crowd 
I told the hackman to keep on driving, and watch until the train got 
back to the depot, and when it did, to drive on. 

282 



O. Where was the speech made in Jackson? 

A. To the best of my recollection it was made from a platform 
about a half mile from the depot, as I recall it. It was up the road; 
we had to cross a wooden bridge, and it was on a platform on the 
side of the road. 

Q. Did you hear the speech ? 

A. Absolutely. 

Q. The next place, continue? 

A. We left Jackson between forty-five minutes and an hour 
late, and the next stop was at Athens. 

O. How long were you there? 

A. We were there twenty minutes ; he spoke about fifteen. We 
consumed the balance of that time in going to and from the train ; 
and from Athens we went to Nelsonville, and we were in Nelson- 
ville fifteen minutes; from Nelsonville we went to Logan, and he 
was there ten minutes, and from Logan to Lancaster, where we 
were about ten minutes, and from Lancaster to Columbus. We 
arrived at Columbus at 6:20 P. M. 

O. That concluded that day, did it, except the evening speech? 

A. After supper w^e were driven out to a park where the plain- 
tiff made an address in a summer theatre, and from there we were 
driven down to Memorial Hall at Columbus, where he made the 
principal address of the evening. The crowd was so large and was 
so insistent in getting in, which they could not do, because the doors 
had to be locked, and the plaintiff promised that if they would keep 
quiet he would make another speech on the outside, which he did 
from the steps of Memorial Hall; and from there we were driven 
back to the Nile House, and we stopped at the Nile House that 
night. 

Q. During that day was he under your inspection ? 

A. I was standing by his side from the time we had breakfast 
until he retired for the night. 

O. Pass on to the next day; that would be what day? 

A. That was Friday, May 7th. We left Columbus on Satur- 
day morning and our first stop was at Delaware, arriving at 7 :45 
in the morning. He spoke ten minutes ; we were there about fifteen 
minutes ; he spoke, as I recall it, in the opera house ; and from Dela- 
ware we moved to Marion, where he was fifteen minutes. From 
Marion to Gabon, where he was ten minutes. From Galion — 

Mr. Andreavs :— I don't want to object to this in the ordinary 
sense of the word, but cannot the witness summarize it, without 

283 



giving the exact space of time, and shorten it in that way? It is 
possible they have a right to go through this, but I was thinking it 
might be shortened up by summarizing it. 

Mr. Pound: — The witness is answering the question. 

Court : — It seems to me this testimony is proper as bearing 
upon the truth or falsity of this charge. 

Mr. Andre\\s: — The Court has not heard me object to it, ex- 
cept to shorten it. 

Court : — The Court could not be better occupied than to furnish 
an opportunity for people to prove their reputation. 

Mr. Pound : — Q. Proceed. 

A. From Gabon w^e moved to Mansfield, and we were there 
twenty-five minutes. From Mansfield we moved to Loudonville, 
and were there not to exceed twenty minutes. From Loudonville 
w'e moved to Wooster, and was there fifteen minutes. From 
Wooster we moved to Orrville, and was there fifteen minutes. 
From Orrville we moved to Barberton, and we were there five 
minutes ; and from Barberton we moved to Akron, and we were 
there forty-five minutes. He spoke in a park there, and a con- 
siderable time was consumed in going from the train to the park 
and back again. From Akron we moved to Kent, and we were 
there ten minutes. From Kent we moved to Ravenna, where he 
spoke about twenty-five minutes from a stand in the public park, 
and wdiile we arrived at Ravenna at 3 45, we left there at seven 
o'clock. 

Q. Did that end that day? 

A. No, we removed to Cleveland, where he made his evening 
address. 

O. Did the same conditions exist that day as to your personal 
inspection of the plaintifif as on the other day? 

A. Yes, sir. 

0. All right. Pass on to the next day then. 

A. That was Saturday night, and the train was moved ivoiu 
Cleveland to Mentor, and he spent Sunday at Mr. Garfield's home. 

O. There were no doings in the way of speaking that day ? 

A. No, sir. I left the train about one o'clock Sunday morning, 
after everything was arranged, and met the train again at Cleve- 
land about six o'clock Sunday evening. 

Q. Was that Mr. James R. Garfield that you have reference to? 

A. Yes, sir. 

284 



Q. Proceed, from that time. 

A. We moved from Cleveland Sunday night to Marietta ; he 
spoke at Marietta on Monday morning. 
Q. What day of the month? 

A. Alay 20th ; he spoke there about twenty minutes. He moved 
from Marietta to Caldwell, and was there ten minutes. From Cald- 
well to Cambridge, where he spoke twenty minutes: from Cam- 
bridge to Zanesville, where he spoke twenty minutes. From Zanes- 
ville to Newark, where he spoke twenty minutes, and from Xewark 
to Trinway ; he was there about four minutes ; from Trinway to 
Coshocton, where we laid about fifteen minutes; from Coshocton to 
New Comerstown, where he spoke five minutes ; from Comerstown 
to New Philadelphia, where he stopped ten minutes ; from New 
Philadelphia to Urichsville, where we stopped ten minutes ; from 
Urichsville to Dennison, where he stopped ten minutes, and from 
Dennison to Pittsburg. No further stops were made. I, left him 
at Pittsburg ; we arrived there at 7 :o5 IMonday night. 

O. Were the same conditions existing as to your inspection 
that last day? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. That was the last day you were witli him? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Can you tell the jury what you have seen of the plaintiff 
since ? 

A. I have not seen him since until I met him in this court room 
on Tuesday morning last. 

O. Will you kindly tell the jury during this entire eight days, 
from your observation, what liquid refreshments, either spirituous 
or malt, you saw the plaintifif consume? 

A. None whatever. 

O. That, of course, includes wine? 

A. Wine, yes, sir. 

Q. Now I ask you as to what condition he was in as to sobriety 
or inebriety during that entire time? 

A. To my personal knowledge he was always sober. 

O. You say you heard all of these speeches but one ; am 1 right 
about that ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. What can you say as to whether there was any incohcrency 
in the subject treated, or anything peculiar with reference to that? 

285 



Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as irrelevant and immaterial, 
and also leading. 

Court : — The question is leading. Counsel is entitled to enquire 
by proper question whether or not the conduct or actions or 
language of the plaintiff during those speeches indicated the 
presence or absence of alcohol. 

Mr. Pound : — I will adopt the question Your Honor suggests. 

O. From your observation, what do you say as to the condition 
the plaintiff was in in all his addresses, whether he was sober or 
under the influence of liquor? 

A. He was absolutely sober. 

O. Will you tell the jury how you were on that schedule in 
getting around, whether ahead or behind time? 

A. We were on time except the day we had the engine derailed 
at Jackson : and on account of leaving Jackson late we cut the time 
along that line so we could make it up, and arrived at Columbus 
that night twenty-seven minutes late. 

O. How old a man did you say you are? 

A. Forty-four years old last October. 

O. I ask vou whether it would have been possible upon these 
eight days at any time for the plaintiff to have been in a condition 
of inebriety, with the exception of Sunday, when you didn't see 
him. and you not know it? 

A. I don't think so, no sir. 

O. Does your answer that he was a sober man apply to all the 
time you were in his company? 

A. Positively. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Belden : — Q. Where is your home? 

A. Cleveland, Ohio. 

O. How did you happen to accompany the plaintiff" on this trip? 

A. I was requested to make the schedule, on account of my 
railroad knowledge of Ohio, and after making the schedule I was 
asked to take charge of the train and see that it was run on schedule 
time. 

Q. And your connection with the trip and your opportunity of 
observing the plaintiff was limited to this trip of eight days, I think 
you said ? 

A. Yes, sir. 

286 



Q. And you were present and heard all of these speeches but 
one, I think you said? 
A. Yes, sir. 

O. Which one was that? 
A. The one at Toledo, on Thursday night. 
O. You were present at Jackson? 
A. Yes, sir. 
O. And at Athens? 
A. Yes, sir. 
O. And at Ravenna? 
A. Yes, sir. 

Q. And at Martin's Ferry? 
A. Yes, sir. 
Mr. Belden : — That is all. 



(At this point there were read in evidence the depositions of 
Albert Shaw, George B. Cortelyou, Lawrence H. Graham, George 
E. Roosevelt, James E. Amos, Lyman Abbott, Leonard Wood, 
William B. Dulany, and George Dewey, on behalf of the plaintiff.) 



STATE OF MICHIGAN 
In the Circuit Court for the County of Marquette. 
Theodore Roosevelt, 

Plaintiff 
vs. 
George A. Newitt, 

Defendant 

March 27th, 1913. 

Depositions taken on the part of the plaintiff in pursuance of the 
Notice hereto attached, in the above entitled cause before Byrd D. 
Wise, a Notary Public duly authorized to administer oaths under 
the laws of the State of New York, at his office, No. 20 Broad 
Street, New York City, at 10:20 o'clock, A. M., it having been con 
tinued from 154 Nassau Street. 

APPEARANCES : 

James H. Pound, Esq. 

Messrs. Bowers & Sands. 

Mr. Bowers and Mr. Van Benschoten for the Plaintiff. 

287 



William P. Belden. Esq., and 

Horace Andrews, Esq., for the Defendant. 

Counsel for both sides present and proceed by agreement. 

The Notary states that he has taken the customary oath. 

Albert Shaw, called and sworn as a witness, testified in be- 
half of the plaintifif as follows: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Mr. Pound: — Q. Your name, Dr. Shaw, is what? 

A. Albert. 

Q. Your title of doctor, is it a medical or philosophical term? 

A. Philosophical and legal. I am a Doctor of Laws and a 
Doctor of Philosophy. 

O. How old a gentleman are you, please? 

A. I am fifty-five. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. 1 was born in the Miami Valley, Southern Ohio — Butler 
County. Ohio. 

O. How long did you remain there during your boyhood? 

A. Yes, I went to Iowa when I was seventeen. 

Q. What school did you attend outside of the Grammar Schools, 
as we call them now : 

A. I graduated from Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa; and 
afterwards from Johns Hopkins, Baltimore. 

Q. About what year did you graduate first? 

A. From Grinnell, 1879; and from Baltimore. 1884. 

O. Do I understand that you took your B. A. at Grinnell Col- 
lege? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In what year? 

A. 1879. 

Q. What w-as the first degree you took at Johns Hopkins? 

A. Doctor of Philosophy, in 1884. In the meanwhile I had 
owned and edited a newspaper in Iowa. 

Q. During what time, pending your studies, was it you were 
engaged in the newspaper business, about? 

A. Continuously in a way, because I kept my half ownership 
in the Iowa newspaper during the period, most of the ]ieriod when 
I was in Baltimore — went back and forth. 

Q. Now. then, after you had received your Doctor's degree, did 

288 



that end, except individually, your scholarship attendance any- 
where ? 

A. It did, except for lectures I attended in European Universi- 
ties several years afterward. 

Q. Now, to what did you devote your activities immediately 
upon your obtaining the degree of Doctor of Laws? 

A. Doctor of Philosophy. 

O. Doctor of Philosophy? 

A. I went immediately to Minneapolis, where I became Asso- 
ciate Editor of the Daily Tribune, a morning paper of Minneapolis. 
I had been writing for that paper for a year. 

Q. How long were you there, about? 

A. I was there continually until the spring of 1888, when I 
went abroad and stayed for the better part of two years, and then 
I came back to Minneapolis for a year, and then I came to New 
York. 

Q. Have you been in New York ever since? 

A. Yes. 

Q. And during your residence in New York, what has been 
your occupation? 

A. I have been continuously engaged in editing a magazine 
called The American Review of Reviews. 

O. Now, then, Doctor, as near as you can tell — I don't expect 
you to tell to the day or month, but as near as you can tell, when 
was it you first became acquainted with the plaintiff, Theodore 
Roosevelt ? 

A. When he was President of the Civil Service Board in Wash- 
ington. I visited Washington from New York and had a large 
acquaintance with public men there. 

Q. Now, did there come a time when your acquaintanceship 
became more than a casual acquaintanceship? 

A. When he came to New York under appointment of Mayor 
Strong as head of the Police Board, I came to know him quite well. 
I had known him quite well before, but I did not live in Washing- 
ton. 

Q. After you became acquainted with him as Police Commis- 
sioner and during the time he was Police Commissioner, will you 
state how intimately you became acquainted with him ; that is, 
relatively, how frequently you saw him? 

A. That has been a good many years ago and it is difficult to 
say how frequently I saw him. I was not very far from Police 

2S9 • 



Headquarters. My oftice then was down in Astor Place, at the 
head of the Bowery, and he was then in Mulberry Bend, but I saw 
him quite frequently, spoke with him over the telephone often, and 
lunched with him not infrequently. We lunched at a place called 
Fleischmann's at that time. 

Q. W'ill you state as to whether you would see him any par- 
ticular hour of the day, or were you irregular, and in your meet- 
ings and appointments in the evening? 

A. More likely to see him at lunch time. 

Q. At that time where was he residing? 

A. I cannot tell you precisely where he was residing. 

Q. The only thing I wanted to know was, he resided in New 
York? 

A. Yes, his duties kept him in New York City. 

Q. I don't care about the place, but he lived in New York City 
rather than outside of New York? 

A. Yes. 

Q. After he was Police Commissioner, what was the next 
office, public office, he held in which you came in touch with him? 

A. He became Assistant Secretary of the Navy. I saw him the 
day he was appointed. 

Q. What was the fact, during the time he held that position, 
as to how frequently, approximately, you saw him or communi- 
cated with him? 

A. I was in the habit of going to Washington quite frequently. 
He was closely occupied with his duties in the Navy Department 
just preceding the war with Spain. I cannot tell you how fre- 
quently I saw him, but when I saw him he was in his office in the 
Navy Department. 

Q. Of course, during the time when he was away in Cuba you 
did not see him at all? 

A. No. 

Q. Upon his return, what was the fact as to whether your in- 
timacy was renewed? 

A. Yes. 

Q. During his term as Governor, how frequently did you see 
him? 

A. I saw him as frequently as might be convenient during that 
period, and during the period of the campaign preceding his elec- 
tion, when I saw him from time to time in New York and Oyster 
Bay. 

* 290 



Q. Will you state what the fact is as to whether your inter- 
views with him were at some length so that you had time and op- 
portunity and naturally did indulge in general conversation on 
those occasions ? 

A. Yes, they were of more length than frequency. When I 
did see him I saw him. as a rule, for considerable lengths of time. 

Q. Did you know him particularly during his campaign for the 
Vice-Presidency, while he was in it? 

A. Very well. I saw him in the period of the convention in 
Philadelphia, when he was nominated, and was constantly in and 
out of his private headquarters; and afterwards, during the cam- 
paign, I saw him. He was away a great deal of that campaign, 
speaking in the West. Of course, I did not see him then. 

Q. After the election passed away and he was situated in the 
office of Vice-President, what was the fact as to whether or not 
during that time you saw him? 

A. That period was a comparatively brief one. You will re~ 
member he was inaugurated on the 4th of March, and there was a 
brief session of the Senate, and, as I remember it, after some little 
time, he returned to Oyster Bay. and went to the Adirondacks, and 
then came the assassination of Mr. McKinley. I was in reasonably 
close touch with Mr. Roosevelt at that time. 

Q. By "close touch," what do you mean? 

A. Correspondence and the habitual communication a man 
might have with one with whom he had some interests in common, 
particularly some interest of a public nature. 

Q. Now, after the change, when he became President, what was 
the fact as to whether or not during his entire term you saw him 
more or less? 

A. I lived at no time in Washington. I went to Washington 
frequently, about once a month I should suppose. When there I 
saw him, and saw him with perhaps unusual freedom when one 
considers his station as President of the United States. 

Q. In other words, to be plain about it, you were rather on the 
footing of a guest? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What is the fact when you did see him at your interviews, 
if he had the time, were they short or long? 
A. They were long. 

Q. Now, on the occasion of your interviews, was there any 

291 



regularity of time of your being there, or would you droj) in any 
time that your business might be over? 

A. Any time. It might be I went in the morning and stayed 
all day. 

Q. Did that also api)ly to the term lie was elected to as well as 
the continuation of President McKinley's term? 

A. In a general way, yes. 

O. Xow. Doctor, will you tell us. from your acquaintanceship 
with him, what the fact is as to your ])ersonal knowledge, by ob- 
servation and e\ ery sense you have, whether you are of the opinion 
you thorcjughly know this man or not. the plaintiff, Theodore 
Roose\elt? 

A. I ha\e always believed I knew him well, or rather I have 
long believed that I knew him well. 

Q. Xow. then. I ask you whether vou ever saw Theodore 
Roosevelt under the influence of li(|uor? 

A. Never. 

O. Now, I ask you how you dehne Theodore Roosevelt, as a 
total abstainer, or an exceedingly temperate man, or a user of 
liquors with a certain degree of liberality, or an over-indulgent use 
of it? 

A. .Speaking from my own ol)ser\ ation and my own deep- 
seated belief, the second of your classifications, will you use the 
same phrase again? 

Q. The same phrase is whether he is a man that is exceedingly 
tem])erate in his use of liquor? 

A. Exceedingly temperate is the phrase that would correspond 
with what I have always believed, as the result of my own observa- 
tions. 

O. Now, wdll you kindly tell us what the fact is, from your 
own knowledge, whether he has been a man of affairs, not only in 
public but private life, but the outi:)ut of his work would require 
the utmost energy of a superior mind, mentally? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material. 

Q. Answer the question. Doctor? 

A. I perhaps have been in a position to judge of public men 
from the standpoint of industry and their achievements — 

Q. Describe to us the basis, as you go along- — the opportunities 
you have had to observe men? 

292 



A. I have been continuously a •oumalist for, I might say sin.'e 
1880, although some periods have been academic periods; all 
through those same years I was a journalist ; when I was in Johns 
Hopkins University I spent a large part of my time in \\'ashington. 
O. Maybe I can simplify that. By reason of your connection 
with journalism, would you come in contact with men whose work 
was principally Hterary work of a high grade? 

A. I have had two kinds of opportunity. I might say, an op- 
portunity of knowing men in public and political life and also an 
opportunity of knowing students of history and political science, 
and men engaged in academic and University work. And those 
opportunities I have had continuously, so that I have been able 
to judge of a man's industry in writing history, for example, and 
general literary work. 

Q. Another thing I want to ask you, and that is this : whether 
you have devoted a part of the last thirty years yourself, indi- 
\idually to that class of work? 
A. I have; I can say I have. 

O. So that you have }our individual e>;i)erience? 
A. Yes. 

O. Now, I ask you, based upon your information, whether 
obtained by yourself or by experience, what do you say as to 
whether the activities the i>iaintiff has been engaged in' during the 
last twenty-five years are such as would require the energy un- 
beclouded of a very energetic man? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material, also it is leading and suggestive. 

O. Ansvv'er the question; from your observation of the plaintiff, 
what would you describe the character of the man to be that was 
able to do the work that you know he has done in the last twenty- 
five years? 

Mr. Andrews:— I object to that as irrelevant, incompetent and 
immaterial. 

O. Answer the question ? 

A. A man of great vigor, with remarkable habits of continuous 
and unbroken industry, of excei)tional vitality and a sound regimen 
of life. 

O. Will you state whether in any of his works you were par- 
ticularly in touch with him during the time they were being writ- 
ten ; did you see the advance sheets of any of his books, or anv- 
thing of that kind? 

293 



A. Not so much of his historical writings, but usually of his 
state papers of very great importance, and his speeches and public 
addresses. 

O. I want you to tell me in your own way what the things were ? 
A. His messages to Congress and a number of the public 
speeches and addresses he made during the period when he was 
President; not so much his literary diversions during the long 
political period — rather his public activities as Governor and 
President. 

Q. Now, 1 ask you, were those submitted to you, as a friend to 
a certain extent, as to whether you had any suggestions as to the 
different subjects that might or might not be suggested to him? 

Mr. Andrews :^ — 1 object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material. 

O. That is all right. Answer the question. 
A. I was asked to read them in advance and asked to make 
any suggestions that I was disposed to make. 

Q. Now, then, independently of that — and don't answer this 
until counsel has a chance to object. I will ask this question. Dur- 
ing the last twenty-five years, do you know the general reputation 
of Theodore Roosevelt in the City of New York and elsewhere, in 
the community where he is known, as being a man of intense in- 
tellectual and ])hysical application and of absolute sobriety? Yes 
or no. You can answer the question : answer the question. 

A. Yes. I do. I may say I have been in an exceptional position 
to know Mr. Roosevelt's reputation because of my acquaintance — 
Mr. Andrews: — I think, perhaps, when you say "I do." that 
answers it. 

O. What do you say that he is as to whether he is a sober man 
or a drunkard .'' 

A. His reputation, without any doubt, has been that of man 
of sobriety and temperance in the highest sense. 

Q. As to his work, as to whether that was intense or not? 
Mr. Andkew.s: — I object to the cfuestion because it is irrelevant, 
incompetent and immaterial and not germane to the issue. 
O. Answer the question ? 

A. His reputation as to activity and intensity of work is that 
of a man of extraordinary application and production. 

Q. Now, during all those lunches you had with Mr. Roosevelt 
during the time he was Police Commissioner, what do you say as 

294 



to whether there was at any of them aiiy liquor used or not, as you 
recall it? 

A. Never any; coffee only. 

O. What was the fact, by reason of your connection with edi- 
torial work, you have come in close contact with the newspaper 
fraternity or not; by that I mean reporters? 

A. Reasonably so. 

Q. Have you ever heard the suggestion of any inebriety on Air. 
Roosevelt's part from any of them? 

A. Never. 

O. During your entire acquaintanceship with him of approxi- 
mately twenty-five years, have you ever known of his — what do you 
know about his health, his physical health, whether good or bad? 

A. I have never known it to be other than exceedingly good 
with the exception — 

O. Of 1912 in October last; I, of course, don't include the 
shooting business? 

A. With that exception and with the exception of some trouble 
he had with his knee which I believe was an accident when he was 
President, at the time of the coal strike. I remember he had some 
sprain of the knee, some temporary aft'air; nothing to do with his 
health as respects the activity of his mind ; merely a slight accident. 

O. Doctor, I don't know whether you know it or not, but I 
think it will be agreed — at any rate, I suppose that the testimony 
will show that Mr. Roosevelt was born in 1858; that will leave him 
55 years old at the present time. I want to ask you from the be- 
ginning of your acquaintanceship with him and from your ac- 
quaintanceship with him, what can you say as to whether there is 
any indication of any physical or mental impairment in Col. Roose- 
velt that can possibly be attributed to inebriety or over-indulgence 
in liquor or from any cause? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object as immaterial, irrelevant and incom- 
petent, and for the further reason that it involves matters not 
within the scope of the experience of the witness as shown in his 
testimony. 

O. Answer the question. Doctor? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt, of all men in public life whom I have ever 
known, is a man of the most unvar\-ing vigor, the most free from 
those ups and downs and reactions you always find in any man who 
relies on any form of stimulant whatever. 

295 



Q. I will repeat the question. From your knowledge of him 
and your intercourse and intimacy in every form, shape and man- 
ner, what do you say whether, at the present time, he manifests 
any indication of excessive indulgence in liquor? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object for the same reason. 

O. Answer the question? 

A. Not to my knowledge. 

O. Will you state whether you have seen in the last ten years 
any change in Mr. Roosevelt beyond the natural one of year by 
year that can be attributed in any wise to any indulgence in alco- 
holic, spirituous or mah intoxicating liquors? 

A. I have not. 

O. In which one of these offices that he has held were you in 
closest touch with him. whether Governor, President, Police Com- 
missioner or Assistant Secretary of the Navy? 

A. I was physically closest to him when he held office in New 
York. I was more truly in touch with him during his Presidency, 
but not near enough to see him visibly quite so frequently. 

Q. How vs-as it while he was Governor? 

A. I was in reasonably close touch with him then, too. 

O. How long would your interviews with him be, w^ould they be 
as much as a day or an hour or only a few minutes.'' 

A. At what period? 

O. When he was Governor? 

A. .Several hours. 

O. \\hat can you say would be the length of your interviews, 
ai)proximately, during the time he was President? 

A. It depended entirely ui)on circumstances. 

O. I want your longest one? 

A. Sometimes I was a \\'hite House guest for two or three days 
and saw him a great deal at night as well as during the day. 

O. In the home circle? 

A. Not only in the home circle, l)Ut privately and alone at night, 
going over matters of interest. 

O. Now, you Ivave mentioned you were in attendance on the 
National Convention of the Republican Party wdien Mr. Roosevelt 
was nominated for the Vice-Presidency. W'ill you state to the 
Court, under the mental strain that he underwent, whether you saw 
any indication of any use of liquor of any kind to excess? 

Mr. Andrews:— I object to that. It is irrelevant, incompetent 
and imtnaterial. Pie assumes there was some mental strain on his 

296 



part. My memory being that his part in the Philadelphia Conven- 
tion was far different from that suggested by your question. 

Mr. Pound:— Now, repeat the question. (The question is re- 
peated by the stenographer, as follows.) 

"O Now, you have mentioned you were in attendance on the 
Natio^nal Convention of the Republican Party when Mr. Roosevelt 
was nominated for the Vice-Presidency. \M11 you state to the 
Court, under the mental strain that he underwent, whether you saw 
any indication of any use of liquor of any kind to excess .'"' 
A. As far as I can say he was entirely abstemious. 
O. Now, I call your attention to 1904. ^^'ere you present at the 
National Republican Convention on that occasion? That was the 
time he was nominated for President— I believe it was— and I ask 
vou the same question during that time .^ 

A. He was not there, of course ; he was in Washington, but I 
believe I was at the convention. 

O. Did you see him before you went to the convention, or after- 
wards, is what I am directing your attention to, if you can recall."' 
A. At the present moment the convention of 1904, which was 
without excitement at any time, is not sharply in my memory. 

O. During the entire time you have seen him. when he was 
Prerident or since he has been President, have you ever seen him 
on anv occasion when, in your judgment from his conduct, manner 
or his actions, he deviated any from the standard that an upright, 
temperate man might be expected to exhibit? 
A. Never. 

O. Whether or no Mr. Roose^ elt carries this temi.erance to his 
eating as well as his drinking? 

Mr. Andrews :— I object to that as irrelevant, incompetent and 

immaterial. 

O. Answer the question? 

A. Always, as far as I have observed; as far as I have had any 
observation, always. 

O. Is that true as to any habit he indulges in ; does he smoke or 

anvthing of that kind? 

' A. I have never known him to use tobacco in any form. 
O. Have you noticed any change in his habits with reference 
to the use of coffee or the substitution of anything else? 

Mr. Andrews:— I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material. 

297 



O. Answer the question. Doctor? 

A. During the period of his PoHce Commissionership he always 
drank coffee at lunch time ; while he was President and since, as 
far as my observation goes, he has been drinking tea. 

Q. And have you seen him indulging in that when any wine or 
other spirituous liquors was being oft'ered to guests or any other 
person at the table? 

A. Yes. 

O. When is it you first heard, if you ever heard before to-day, 
of the fact that Mr. Roosevelt sometimes indulged to excess? 

A. I first heard such an allegation in the mid-summer of 1908. 

Q. In conjunction with what other matter, if anything did you 
hear it? 

A. In conjunction with certain controversies that had arisen by 
reason of some of his state papers and public utterances and his 
bringing a suit under the Sherman anti-trust law. as I recollect it. 

Q. Now. then, Doctor, from your acquaintanceship with the 
plaintiff' in this suit. Theodore Roosevelt, I want your firm and 
honest ojnnion as to whether it could be possible for him to be an 
inebriate or a man in the habit of getting drunk without you know- 
ing it or having seen some evidence of it ? 

A. It would not seem to me possible that Mr. Roosevelt could 
have been an inebriate or addicted to the intemperate use of alco- 
holic stimulants without my having known of it from my own ob- 
servation or through disclosures to me by those whom I knew very 
intimately and who were in a position to see him at those times 
when I did not see him. 

Q. \Vhen you first heard of this matter it emanated from where 
— from Wall Street or where? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material. I think it is rather below the dignity of this case. I 
object to it as being irrelevant, incompetent and immaterial. 

O. Answer the question? 

A. If I understood you. you asked me where I heard it? 

O. Yes. 

A. I heard it only in \\ all Street, 

Q. Did you, about that time — 

Mr. Andrews : — Just a moment. I move to exclude that testi- 
mony, and the suggestion carried with it, as being improper and 
irrelevant in this case. 

298 



O. Will you state what the fact is whether about that time vou 
made it your business to go to Oyster Bay and see the plaintiif, 
make him a visit during that campaign ? 

A. The first time that any such allegation or rumor as to his 
habits ever came to me was on a certain Friday — I believe in July 
of the year 1908 — 

Mr. Andrews: — Just a minute. I object to the answer as being 
irresponsive to the question. 

O. No, just continue, please. 

A. I spent Saturday with Mr. Roosevelt at Oyster Bay, the 
following day. 

Q. How long were you with him on that occasion ? 
A. A number of hours. 

Q. What time of the d^}' did you get there, in the morning or 
in the afternoon? 

A. In the morning, the middle of the forenoon. 

O. Who did you meet when there, the family, 01 he. or who? 

A. I met him alone first and I was with him some time, and 
then afterwards with the family. 

O. Now, during your entire visit there, what can you say as 
to the picture he presented to you of physical and mental health 
and contentment? 

A. He was in perfect condition of mind and bodv. 

Q. W^hen you saw him did you know^ w^here he had been? 

A. I remember he had been that morning horse-back riding. 

Q. Now% will you kindly state, in connection and in conjunction 
with these statements, as you heard them, whether they were made 
as the basis of the conclusion that a man should adopt such a policy 
as he had, or anything of that kind? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material ; and also leading and calling for the conclusion of the 
witness. 

Q. Answer the question. 

A. The thing that I heard was in the nature of a very specific 
story as to Mr. Roosevelt's habits, as explaining the course of his 
policy as President from the standpoint of those who were 
criticising him. 

O. That was the prosecution of what they call the anti-trust 
suits? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that. 

299 



O. Were they the prosecutions under the Sherman Act or not? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object for the same reason. 

O. Answer the question ? 

A. I should say prosecutions under the Sherman Act were asso- 
ciated with that discussion. 

yiR. Andrews : — I move to exchide the answer. 

The Witness: — It was particularly at the time of what was 
known as the Harriman controversy. 

O. At this time, when you were at Mr. Roosevelt's house, did 
you dine with him? 

A. I lunclied with him. It was the mid-day meal. I returned 
late in the afternoon. 

O. Nov>', what is the fact as to whether you have had an ac- 
c[uaintanceship with other Presidents besides Mr. Roosevelt who 
have occupied the Presidential chair and when occupying the Presi- 
dential chair? 

Mr. Andrews: — That is also objected to as irrelevant, incom- 
petent and immaterial. 

O. Ansv/er the question? 

A. I have had a formal acquaintance with several Presidents. 

Q. You, of course, do not know the defendant in this suit, 
do you ? 

A. I do not. 

Q. Now, then, in a general way, without s[)eci tying the date, do 
you remember Mr. Roosevelt's African trip? 

A. I do. 

O. How soon after his return did you see him? 

A. The day of his return. 

Q. How long were aou in his company on that day or shortly 
thereafter? 

A. I vv'as one of the ( leneral Reception Committee who met 
liim dovv-n the Bay and Avas with him for several iiours in the ])ub- 
lie celebration. 

O. Did you see any ciiange in his j)ersonal a])i)carance that 
would indicate any change in his jjcrsonal habits? 

A. He came home in especial ])hysical vigor by reason of his 
long out-of-door activity in Africa. 

O. Now, one other thing. You say you first became accpiainted 
with Col. Roosevelt, inore particularly, when he was Police Com- 
missioner. Did you know him when he was an Asseml)lyman or 
a member of the Legislature of the State of New York? 

300 



A. I was living cliiefly out in the \\ est. coming to Wasiiington 
and Baltimore at that time. I knew him well by reputation, but not 
personally at that time. 

Q. Do you remember, in the year 1910, the New York cam- 
paign ? 

A. Very well. 

O. Who was the presiding officer of the New York State Re- 
publican convention in that year, if you recall? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt presided at the Saratoga convention. 

Q. Did you see him there ? 

A. I did. 

O. Had you been more or less in touch with him for a week or 
ten days prior thereto and for much time afterwards, or not so 
much? 

A. Not very much prior because I came down from the Adiron- 
dacks and stopped over for the convention ; but I saw him to some 
extent at Saratoga. 

Q. What can you say, from your obserxation as chairman of 
that convention and the things that took place there, as to whether 
there was any indication of any undue use of liquor in any way 
or not? 

A. None of which I am aware. 

Q. That was somewhat of a turbulent convention in some re- 
spects, was it not? 

A. It was for a very short time. I was not in a position to ob- 
serve very closely. I had my family with me. 

Q. W^ere you present at Chicago at the time of the National 
Convention of 1912? 

A. The Republican National Convention, yes. 

O. Were you or were you not in the convention that was after- 
w^ards held that formed the dissenting party? 

A. I was not in the later large convention that formed the Pro- 
gressive Party. I was at the preliminary meeting at Orchestra Hall 
at the conclusion of the Republican Convention. 

Q. Did you see Mr. Roosevelt on the occasion when he first 
came to Chicago after the convention had begun, or how soon after 
he came there did you see him — that will be easier? 

A. I saw him, I should think, two or three days before the 
formal opening of the convention, while those contests were still in 
process. 

301 



1 



Q. During that time and during the convention up to the time 
the nominations were made, were you more or less in touch with 
him ? 

A. I was in touch with him to a certain extent. 

Q. So that you saw him? 

A. I saw him very frequently in his headquarters. Mrs. Roose- 
velt was with him, and his life was very private. I saw him as 
a number of his friends saw him. 

O. The point I want to call your attention to is, even in public, 
or as you did see him outside and away from his family, did you 
see anything that in anywise would lead you to believe that he was 
under the influence of liquor or animated by liquor at all? 

A. Nothing whatever. 

O. The stress and excitement from what was going on there 
was nothing but what w^ould be natural under the circumstances? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object as irrelevant, incompetent and im- 
material and leading. 

Q. W'as it or not? 

A. Oh, not at all. Mr. Roosevelt had, all his Hfe, been ac- 
customed to convention scenes and activities. 

O. Now. I'ust one other thing. The natural temperament of 
Col. Roosevelt is what, whether it is effusive, or cold, silent and 
reticent ? 

A. X'er}' buoyant, and at times perhaps eft'usive, but not in the 
sense of being unrestrained. 

O. That is, you would call him a fairly good mixer, wouldn't 
you ? 

A. I w^ould. 

Mr. Pound: — Your witness. 



George B. Cortelyou, called and sworn as a witness, testified 
in behalf of the plaintiff as follows: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Ex.AMiNED BY Mr. Pound : — O. Your full name is George B. 
Cortelyou ? 
A. Yes. 

Q. You reside where at the present time? 
A. Riverdale, New York City. 

302 



O. How long has New York City or its environments been 
your home, about? 

A. Well, I will answer that by saying I was born in this city 
and lived here a good part of my life. 

Q. Now^ you have known and served under several of the 
Presidents of the United States? 

A. I have. 

Q. You first became attached to the Presidential office in what 
capacity ? 

A. I went there first as a stenographer. 

Q. In w^hose administration? 

A. In the second administration of President Cleveland. 

Q. Were you promoted or changed during the presidency of 
President Cleveland? 

A. I was advanced to the position of Executive Clerk under 
President Cleveland. 

Q. Did you afterwards become Secretary to the President? 

A. Following that I was Assistant Secretary, and then Secretary 
to the President. 

Q. And you were succeeded as Secretary by Mr. Thurber, were 
you? 

A. Mr. Thurber was Private Secretary, as it was then called, 
to Mr. Cleveland. I was Executive Clerk with Mr. Thurber. 

Q. Now, after your connection with the presidency ceased, did 
you hold any other office in connection with the Federal Govern- 
ment ? 

A. You mean with any President? 

O. Yes ; I wish you would describe the offices you have held ? 

A. Following the White House experience? 

O. Yes. 

A. After leaving the White House I became Secretary of Com- 
merce and Labor in 1903. 

Q. Under whom? 

A. Under President Roosevelt, and I remained in that office 
until July ist, 1904. when I resigned to become Chairman of the 
Republican National Committee. On March 5th, 1905, I became 
Postmaster-General, serving in that capacity until March 5th, 1907. 

Q. And then what? 

A. Then I became Secretary of the Treasury. 

Mr. Andrews : — That is, was in 1907 ? 

303 



The Witness: — 1907, serving in that capacity until Marcli 
8th, 1909. 

Q. And then what? 

A. 1 then came to this city to become President of the Consoh- 
dated Gas Company of New York. 

Q. Now. of course, in a general way, I suppose you have known 
the plaintiff in this case, Air. Roose\elt. ever since he has been a 
member of the Legislature of New York? 

A. I didn't know him well, until shortly before he became Vice- 
President. 

O. That is all I wanted to ask you. Whatever you know was 
his general reputation before that? 

A. I had met him, but I cannot say that I knew him very well. 

O. About when was it that you — locate that time that he became 
Vice-President; as I understand it, it was on the 4th of March, 
1897? 

A. 1901. 

Q. That is right, 1901. Now, relative to that, how long before 
was it that you became better acquainted with him? 

A. I would not say I became very well acquainted with him 
prior to his running for Vice-President. I had met him a number 
of times ; our relations were close, but they were not intimate at all. 

O. After he became Vice-President did your relationship con- 
tinue or get closer or what? 

A. I came to see more of him after that. 

Q. And by the misfortune of losing Mr. McKinley. he became 
President and you became a member of his cabinet? 

A. No, on September i6th, 1901, I became his Secretary, Sec- 
retary to the President, continuing in that capacity, 

Q, W'hat was the fact as to whether that brought you into still 
closer and still more intimate relationship with him? 

A. Very close relations. 

Q. What has been the fact since as to whether that has re- 
mained or whether it has in any way been broken? 

A. No, that has remained. 

Q. You then were also private Secretary to President McKin- 
ley ? 

A. Secretary to President McKinley. 

Q. When you became a cabinet officer, what is the fact as to 
whether you saw* the plaintiff in this suit, Theodore Roosevelt, 
frequently or not? 

304 



A. I saw him very frequently, and more frequently I suppose 
than many of the other cabinet officers because of having pre- 
viously been his Secretary. 

Q. About how frequently would you see him as a cabinet officer, 
how frequently would conferences be held? 

A. It would be a little difficult to say with any sort of definite- 
ness as to that. Of course, I saw him always on cabinet days and 
sometimes two or three times a day. 

O. When was cabinet days? 

A. Tuesdays and Fridays. 

Q. Of each week? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, that leads me to the next question. Did vou see him 
besides that frequently or not? 

A. Yes, so frequently that I would not attempt to remember it. 

O. What time of the day or evening or at all times, if you felt 
at lil>erty and wanted to go, did you go? 

A. At all times. 

Q. So far as you knew, were you an acceptable visitor? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, I ask you whether during the campaigns, by reason of 
your experience, by reason of the fact you have been Chairman of 
the National Committee, you were brought in not only in an ad- 
visory capacity but to do what work you could in the way 
of direction? 

A. During the campaign prior to the one when I was Chairman 
of the National Committee, I didn't have occasion to see him very 
frequently ; he was busy campaigning and my duties were more 
closely associated with Air. McKinley ; but, in the campaign of 
1904. I saw him quite frequently. 

O. \Vhat is the fact as to whether not only there was a personal 
intimacy between you two gentlemen, but also your families were 
intimate? 

A. Yes. . 

Q. What is the fact as to whether when you were .Secretary 
you dined with Mr. Roosevelt on a number of occasions or not? 

A. That is correct. 

O. Have you attended what we call here diplomatice dinners as 
well as other functions he gave ? 

A. Various State dinners and various dinners the cabinet offi- 
cers gave to the President. 

305 



Q. Will you state what the fact is as to whether you also at- 
tended dinners at his home in Oyster Bay? 
A. Yes, frequently. 

Q. Have you attended there as a friend when there was no 
dinner? 

A. Frequently. 

Q. Except yourself and the family? 

A. Frequently. 

Q. How frequently would you go to the President's when he 
was away on his vacation, at Oyster Bay, to interview him while 
you were holding your various offices ; did you come over from 
Washington here? 

A. Well, for a number of summers I lived near him at Hunting- 
ton and went to see him frequently during the summer. 

O. Have you ever accompanied him on any hunting trips he 
made? 

A. During the time I was his secretary, I think I went with 
him on every trip he made. 

Q. Now, I wish you would tell us how much whiskey you have 
ever seen Theodore Roosevelt drink? 

A. I don't recall seeing him take whiskey more than two or 
three times during the entire experience. 

Q. How much brandy did you ever see him take? 

A. I never saw him take any. 

Q. Did you see him take whiskey at dinner or upon what oc- 
casion did you see him take it? 

A. I don't recall ever seeing him take whiskey at dinner, and 
when I say two or three times, I would have to say that the only 
occasion on which I remember it with any definiteness was, I think, 
when he was about to have his leg operated upon following the 
accident, the Pittsfield trolley accident; just as Doctor Rixey was 
about to begin the operation he insisted upon the President taking 
a little whiskey or stimulant of some kind. 

Q. That operation was what, something the matter with the 
knee? 

A. That was scraping the bone of the leg. 

Q. Scraping the bone about the point of the knees? 

A. Below the knee. 

Q. The shinbone? 

A. Yes, scraping the bone. 

306 



Q. Was there any anaesthetic administered at that time to the 
President ? 

A. No. 

O. Now, what can you say from your observation as to what 
liquor you have seen him take, have seen Mr. Roosevelt take, at 
any of these dinners? 

A. At banquets he would drink, maybe, a glass of champagne. 
The only other liquor that I knew of his drinking was white wine, 
a sauterne, which he used to drink, very much diluted with Apollo- 
naris or plain water. 

O. I will ask you now, from your entire acquaintanceship with 
him, have you ever seen Theodore Roosevelt in the slightest degree 
under the influence of liquor? 

A. Never. 

Q. Is he an habitual drunkard; yes or no? 

A. I have answered the question. 

Q. I know you have, but just once more for emphasis? 

A. No. 

O. Is he a man, as far as you know, who ever got drunk in his 
lifeT 

A. I never heard of it. 

Q. Now, what is the fact, even as to that glass of champagne, 
whether he drank the entire glass or left it untouched beyond a 
mere tasting of it? 

A. I don't recall that. I have seen him drink a glass of cham- 
pagne at dinner, but I didn't notice that. 

Q. That is all right. If you had noticed it, all right. If you had 
not, it is all right. I want to call your attention to this. Do you 
remember accompanying Mr. Roosevelt on a bear hunting trip one 
time ? 

A. Yes, we went on a bear hunting trip in the Black Belt of 
Mississippi. 

O. Upon that occasion how long were you on that trip? 

A. A week or ten days. 

Q. During that time were you one of his party? 

A. I was with him all day long, from early in the morning until 
late at night. 

Q. How much liquor of any kind, spirituous or malt, intoxi- 
cating of any kind, did he use? 

A. I don't recall his taking a drop. 

307 



O. Now, from your knowledge of him, what would you de- 
scribe him as, a teetotaller or a user of intoxicants, alcoholic or 
spirituous, to an excessive extent or an habitual drunkard, or what, 
or a temperate man? 
A. A temperate man. 

O. Xow, you have dined many times at his private table, family 
table. 1 mean by that? 
A. Yes. 

O. What is the fact as to whether liquor has been an accom- 
paniment of his dinner or meals or not, so far as your observation 
has been, whether it has been your observation that the little liquor 
he does drink at a ])ublic dinner was because of some .^juests he 
wanted to do some honor to? 
A. Yes, I should say that. 

O. Of course, you have heard of Uncle Joe Cannon, in a 
general way, of Dansville. Illinois? 
A. I have. 

O. Do you remember the occasion of his having a sort of soiree 
or blow-out on his birthday? 

A. He had those ])retty regularly, I tliink ; he gave a great many 
receptions. 

O. Well, it has been testified in this case that at one in 190'j — I 
think that is correct, isn't that right ? 

Mr. Andrews :■ — No, the witness said he didn't know when it 
was. 

The Witness: — .\ccording to my memory, some time in the 
late spring of 1906. 

O. Do you remember that .'' 

A. Yes, I remember that. 

Q. Did you attend it? 

A. Yes.' 

O. \\as Theodore Roosevelt there as President of the Unitc<l 

States ? 

A. Yes. 

O. \\ as ht drunk? 

A. He was not. 

O. Was he in such a condition that he staggered? 

A. He was not. 

(). W lu-re did you first see him <m that evening, how soon after 
he came in. 1 am trying to find out.' 

308 



A. I could not answer particularly as to that. My recollection 
is I saw him as he came in. Usually the entrance of the President 
was noted by pretty nearly everybody. 

O. Did they announce him .when he came in? 

A. Sometimes they did. but I don't recall whether they did on 
that occasion. 

O. I will ask you this : It has been testified that a certain 
Senator, who I don't know, came up as the President came into the 
first room he entered and said, "Mr. President, will you take a little 
drink of whiskey," and that the President replied, "No, I will not 
take a little drink of whiskey, but I will take a great, big drink of 
whiskey." Was there any such conversation as that at that time? 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to that unless the witness was there at 
the time. 

Mr. Pound : — He said he was there. 

The Witness: — I was at the reception. 

Mr. Andrews : — He may have been at the reception and still 
not have been at the conversation. 

O. All right, *you have your objection ; now, answer my 
question. 

A. I cannot undertake to say what was said to the President, or 
what he said in reply, when he came in. I recall no such occurrence 
as that. 

O. If it was in a loud boisterous voice, were you situated so as 
to hear everything; is it your judgment you would have heard it? 

A. My only answer to that is that I heard nothing of the sort. 
Of course, with a large crowd I may have been over somewhere 
else; I never heard anything of that sort. 

O. About how wide would you say the house was of Mr. 
Cannon's ? 

A. I should say his house was 25 feet wide. It was not a large 
house. 

O. Was it thirty? 

A. I would hardly say that. Mr. Cannon's house was not a 
large house. 

O. W^hat I want you to describe is, was it a house that went up 
a short distance from the street, one, two or three stories ; or was 
it built on the villa style? 

A. It went up at least three stories, as I recall it. 

O. And it had a sort of villa effect or something of that kind? 
A. It was a moderate-sized house. 

309 



Q. A moderate-sized house? 

A. Yes. 

O. It was on the box order, as to shape? 

A. I would not say that ; it tapered to a point at the top. 

O. As you recall or recollect, did it come pretty close to the 
pavement ? 

A. No, it stood back fairly well. 

Q. By that, what do you mean, a hundred feet? 

A. No, I would not say that. 

Q. Ten or fifteen feet? 

A. Yes, more than that. I should say, maybe, thirty or forty 
feet. 

Q. So that there would be a little walk from the main sidewalk 
to the steps? 

A. Some little walk. 

O. Now, is that the only time you were ever in the then Speak- 
er's house ? 

A. No, I was there a number of times. 

Q. This is what I want to invite your attention to. As you go 
into the front door, in the front, how many rooms were there be- 
sides the parlor ; was there a hall ? 

A. You entered the hall, which extended to a little room two- 
thirds back in the house ; on the left was the front parlor, and con- 
nected v/ith that was the back parlor. 

Q. Of course all the first floor was thrown open for the accom- 
modation of the guests? 

A. There was not a great deal of the first floor. 

O. There was those three rooms? 

A. A small room at the end of the hall and the dining-room, 
and then two or three rooms thrown into one. 

Q. Well, fifty men or women would pretty well crowd that 
room ? 

A. I suppose you could get a couple of hundred in there at 
a time. 

Q. Did they have to utilize the upper stories, too? 

A. I don't recall that. I think they used some of the upper 
rooms for coat rooms. 

Q. Were there ladies there, too? 

A. No. 

Q. As you recall it, there were all men? 

A. Yes. 

310 



Q. Now, you seeing him that night, remembering the occasion, 
if a man testified of his personal knowledge that Mr. Roosevelt was 
so drunk that he could not walk straight, that he staggered, that he 
stuttered, that he talked incoherently, can you say whether that is 
true or not? 

A. I should say it was not true. I would be somewhat suspi- 
cious of the condition of the witness. 

Q. What I am after is whether there was anything in his man- 
ner that showed there was anything wrong with him? 

A. Nothing. 

Q. Mentally or any other way? 

A. No. 

Q. Now, you have known him, you say, for at least ten years, 
and I ask you whether in the excitement of the campaign, with 
the work on him, he would warm up a little bit and manifest any 
evidence of it, either any flush or pallor? 

Mr. Andrews: — I object to that as leading and suggestive. 

Q. Go ahead and answer it. I simply asked you whether you 
have ever observed his temperament that way? 

A. Yes, I have frequently observed his enthusiasm and his in- 
terest and his excitement at times. 

Mr. Pound: — That is all. 



Lawrence Hill Graham, c-alled and sworn as a witness, testi- 
fied in behalf of the plaintiff, as follows : 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. . 

Examined by Mr. Pound:— Q. Where is your residence, 
please ? 

A. My house address? 

Q. Yes. 

A. 1586 Amsterdam Avenue. 

Q. In the city of New York? 

A. Yes, in the city of New York. 

Q. What is your present occupation? 

A. Sales manager for Curtis Aeroplane Company, 

Q. Have you ever been attached to the United States Govern- 
ment in Porto Rico? 

A. Yes. 

311 



O. In what capacity? 
A. Commissioner of the Interior. 

O. When did you cease to be Commissioner of the Interior for 
Porto Rico? 
A. In 1910. 

O. While in Porto Rico your residence was where? 
A. San Juan. 

O. W hen you ceased to he connected with Porto Rico, where 
did you go? 

A. I was in New York for a Httle while and then went up to 
Canada. 

O. Where were you born, please? 

A. I was born in Canada, near Toronto. 

O. At what period of your life did you first come — 

A. To New York? 

O. To the States? 

A. In 1895, January, 1895. 

O. When you came to the United .States ? 

A. Yes, when I came to the United States. 

Q. When you came to the United States at that time, where did 
you come to, what particular part of it? 

A. New York City. 

O. Have you looked on New York City as your home ever 
since ? 

A. Yes, New York City. 

Q. Of course, you are a citizen of the United .States yourself? 
■ A. Yes. 

Q. What is your general business ; what may I class that as ? 

A. Well, I would suppose you would say newspaper work, as 
a rule. 

O. You are connected with magazines, newspapers and things 
of that kind? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Upon whose appointment were you appointed to your posi- 
tion in Porto Rico? 

A. Col. Roosevelt's. 

O. Now, when did you first meet Col. Roosevelt? 

A. I first met him while he was Police Commissioner ; I simply 
met him, is all, but I met him to know him at Montauk Point when 
the army of occupation came back from Cuba. 

312 



O. That was in 1898? 

A. Yes, 1898. 

O. What was your then occupation? 

A. I was doing some reporting for the Commercial Advertiser. 

O. Now. during that time, will you state what the fact is 
whether — at that time what was Col. Roosevelt's position? 

A. He was colonel, I believe, at that time, of the Rough 
Riders. 

O. Will you state what the fact was whether you were or were 
not thrown in touch with him? 

A. More or less ; I was covering Montauk Point ; the Rough 
Riders were the most talked of; they were the news feature of most 
interest in New York at that time. 

Q. In other words, by reason of the people who were in it, 
there was a local interest attached to it? 

A. Yes. 

O. In connection with the execution of your duties what did 
you do and how close were you in touch with the plaintiff in this 
action, Theodore Roosevelt, as to whether you were ever where he 
was. in his quarters, or were you ever at meals with him, or any- 
thing of that kind? 

A. Yes, I had luncheon out there once or twice. I can't remem- 
ber how many — several times. 

O. What is the facts as to whether on any occasion you ever 
stayed in the camp? 

A. Yes, one night — not with Col. Roosevelt — one, two or three 
nights I believe I stayed out at the camp there. 

O. At w^hat place? 

A. That I can't remember. I think on one occasion with the 
officers. 

O. Do you remember Sag Harbor? 

A. Yes. I was living at Sag Harbor at that time ; my head- 
quarters were there. 

O. Of course, you will excuse me, but where is Sag Harbor? 

A. Sag Harbor is the station next to Montauk Point. 

0. On Long Island? 

A. Yes. 

O. About how many miles apart? 

A. I think it is the station next — 
Q. Approximately, how far ; five or ten miles ? 
A. Probably six or seven or ten miles. 

313 



Mr. Andrews : — Ten miles, did you say ? 

The Witness : — Six or seven miles. 

Mr. Andrews : — From where ? 

The Witness: — Montauk Point, just a short distance; it may 
be ten miles. 

Mr. Andrews: — W'here is that? 

The Witness: — Long Island. 

Q. Do you remember moving up to the hotel yourself? 

A. Yes, when Mr. Roosevelt got — just before he got the 
nomination for Governor; when he was mentioned as a candidate 
I was sent to Oyster Bay and stayed at the Octogon Hotel. 

Q. At Oyster Bay? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How frequently did you see Col. Roosevelt at that time ? 

A. Every day. 

Q. Now, he, at that time, was in the actual dispatch of his 
duties as an army officer? 

A. No, he had been mustered out. 

Q. Did you see him while he was in actual dispatch of his duties 
as an army officer? 

A. Yes. 

Q. In the branch of the service he was connected with? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, were you detailed practically by the people you repre- 
sented to attend Mr. Roosevelt in his capacity as the Republican 
candidate for Governor of New York pending that election or 
during that election? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did that account for the frequency of your seeing him? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Tell us, up to the time of the election, how often you saw 
him per day? 

A. Every day, sometimes twice, sometimes three times a day 
possibly. 

Q. You would conversce with him at that time, would you? 

A. Yes. 

Q. For how long a time ? 

Mr. Andrews : — In the canvas for the Governorship ? 

Mr. Pound: — Yes. 

Q. How long a time; what I am trying to get at is whether it 
was two or three minutes, or an hour or two? 

314 



A. It might be an hour or two and all hours of the day. 

Q. During that time, did you know the fact that he made a trip 
through the State on the rear end of a car? 

A. I was along with him all through it. 

Q. Now, during all that time, what can you say of the amount 
of liquor that you saw Col. Roosevelt drink, if any? 

A. The only liquor that I ever have seen Col. Roosevelt drink 
was either a glass of champagne or white wine at dinner, and one 
glass would last him during the whole meal, and that fact was im- 
pressed on my mind because at that time it struck me that he was 
one of the most abstemious men I ever saw who did drink. 

Q. By "white wine" you mean Rhine wine? 

A. Yes, Rhine wine. 

Q, Now, in the year 1899, which I understand was after he had 
become Governor, did you see him again? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you tell us whether you were a correspondent at that 
time at Albany? 

A. I was a political correspondent at Albany in 1899. 

Q. Did you see him frequently ; did you see him then ? 

A. Every day. 

Q. Now, will you tell us whether you took any meals with him ? 

A. Frequently; occasionally, I will say; I will not say fre- 
quently. 

O. Tell us what they were? 

A. Lunches, breakfasts and dinners. 

Q. Did you ever have supper with him? 

A. Yes. 

Q. You say you were there in 1899 ; tell me the time you were 
there? Of course you went in with the administration? 

A. I went up with him and his family before his inauguration. 
That was in December, 1898. 

Mr. Andrews : — You mean before his inauguration as Gov- 
ernor ? 

The Witness : — Yes. 

Q. What I want to get at is — how long did the Legislature 
meet? 

A. The Legislature lasts 60 days ; I think 60 to 90 days. 

Q. Whatever it was — 

A. I was there during all that time. 

315 



O. Now, during that time, what were his habits in relation to 
the consumption of Hquor at meals or other times? 

A. Precisely what I have said, one glass of wine at a meal, and 
then simply to respond to a toast. 

O. Was that the invariable accompaniment of a meal or oc- 
casionally r 

A. Well, if they had champagne on the table, they would 
naturally fill his glass. 

O. Suppose you and he were having dinner alone, did you have 
licjuor along with it ? 

A. Col. Roosevelt never had it under those conditions. 

O. It was only when accompanied? 

A. Only when he was accompanied and a public afifair. 

O. Now. were you at the convention in Philadelphia when he 
was nominated for the Vice-Presidency? 

A. No, I was not. I saw him the day he left. 

O. After he was nominated, did you then see him? 

A. After he was nominated? 

O. Yes, for the Vice-Presidency? 

A. Yes, at Oyster Bay. 

O. Did you see him officially or as a friend? 

A. As a friend. 

O. Have vou accompanied him or have you been yourself a 
j)arty at a public dinner where he was? 

A. Yes. when he came down to Porto Rico and travelled 
through the island on one occasion. 

O. You say you also lunched with him alone? 

A. Yes, on several occasions. 

O. Now, during all the years you have mentioned, at any time 
vou have happened to be with him, what is the fact, whether you 
would be close enough to where he was sitting to observe his 
conduct ? 

A. I always was. 

O. What can you say as to what the fact is, at any time you 
ha\ e known him up to the present time, that he has ever consumed 
at one meal more than one glass of wine, white wine or cham- 
pagne? 

.A.. Never; I don't say he has consumed one, because T have 
no doubt he has left more than half of it. 

Q. That "is all right, but he has never consumed more than one? 

A. No. 

316 



Q. Have you ever seen him drink whiskey in your life? 

A. No, never. 

Q. Have you ever seen him drink a glass of brandy? 

A. Never. 

O. Have you ever seen him drink any gin ? 

A. No. 

O. Or any of the other alcoholic drinks that you know of? 

A. Absolutely no. 

O. I will ask you whether you have ever seen him drink either 
ale, stout, porter or beer? 

A. No. 

O. What is the fact, if ever, and if so, on how many occasions, 
have you ever seen Col. Roosevelt use any liquor except water, tea 
or coffee outside of meals? 

A. Never. 

O. Now, T will ask you another thing. From vour intimate 
acquaintance with him, have you ever heard him indulge in anv 
profanity that violated the Third Commandment? 

A. Never. 

O. He didn't swear like the Army in Flanders? 

A. No. 

O. Have you ever seen him in the slightest degree under the 
influence of any liquor? 

A. Never. 

O. How old a gentleman are you, Mr. Graham? 

A. 45. 

Q. How early have you seen him in the morning? 

A. Well, I have been at Oyster Bay at seven o'clock when he 
got u]); of course on the campaign tours I have seen him before 
breakfast, and had walks with him before breakfast. 

O. And the earliest you have seen him in the morning after he 
had been to bed was how early? 

A. Perhaps five or six o'clock when we were on the campaign 
together. 

O. You often had walks together? 

A. Frequently, occasionally. 

O. One other question. Were you examined by counsellor Van 
Benschoten yesterday as to what you knew? 

A. Not yesterday. 

O. W^henever it was ? 

A. Day before yesterday. 

317 



Q. He asked what you knew so that you might be intelHgently 
examined? 
A. Yes. 
Mr. Pound: — That's all. 



Georce Emlen Roosevelt, called and sworn as a witness, 
testified in behalf of the plaintiff as follows : 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Examined by Mr. Pound: — Q. Your name is George Emlen 
Roosevelt ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How old are you? 

A. I am a little over 25. 

Q. Married or single? 

A. Single. 

Q. Living with your parents? 

A. I li\e with my parents most of the time, yes. 

Q. Where do you live when you live with your parents ; in 
other words, where does your father live? 

A. 805 Fifth Avenue, New York City, and on Long Island in 
the summer. 

Q. What relationship are you to Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. My father is his first cousin. 

Q. Your father's place at Oyster Bay, how contiguous is it to 
the Colonel's ? 

A. At the present time it surrounds it. 

Q. How long have you known your cousin? 

A. Ever since I can remember. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether or not ever since you can 
remember you have been on friendly or unfriendly terms with 
your cousin, the plaintiff in this suit? 

A. I have been always on the most intimate terms with him. 

Q. From your earliest recollection, what is the fact as to any 
trips you have accompanied him on, if any? 

A. I have been on a great many trips with him of varying 
lengths, walking trips, riding trips, shooting trips, tramping trips, 
rowing trips. 

318 



Q. Who would form the party ? 

A. Usually it consisted of my cousin Theodore, his son Ted, my 
brother Jack and myself. 

Q. When you would be away, how long a time have you been? 

A. Var}dng from one day to several weeks. 

Q. Now, then, during your youthhood on all these occasions, or 
any of these occasions, what is the fact as to whether any liquor 
was made use of by your cousin, Theodore Roosevelt, or not? 

A. There was never any at all. 

Q, Now, what is the fact as to who saw to the supplies, the 
packing? 

A. Sometimes one, sometimes another, but I very often did. 
I would certainly know if anything was taken. 

Q. Do you remember whether you have gone over to a place 
called Lloyds Neck at any time? 

A. Many times. 

Q. When you went to Lloyds Neck, was there any special pro- 
vision that had to be made with reference to the food you were 
going to use ? 

A. Yes, because there was no spring and we had to take water. 
That was the only liquid that was taken. 

Q. On the riding trips, where did you go? 

A. On one riding trip across Long Island to Sayville, where 
Robert B. Roosevelt had a place. 

Q. What can you say on that occasion, if you can remember, 
as to whether any liquid was offered to him ? 

A. I can say we got up at 2 o'clock and rode across the country 
30 miles ; on our arrival there they tried very hard to have him 
take something to drink at lunch, and cousin Theodore refused to 
take anything. 

Q. Do you remember when he was Police Commissioner of the 
city of New York? 

A. Just slightly. I was pretty young then. 

Q. Do you remember him more clearly when he was Governor? 

A. Very much more so, yes. 

Q. Of course you remember the other positions, the other posi- 
tions he held as Assistant Secretary of the Navy and Vice-Presi- 
dent and President? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Have you ever been in Washington with the plaintiff's son? 

A. Yes. 

319 



Q. By the way, what is the ditterence between the ages of you 
and the eldest son of the President? 

A. One month. We were extremely intimate. 
Q. When you went to Washington, where did you stay? 
A. I have on a number of times stayed at the \\'hite House and 
sometimes at my uncle's, Senator Kean's, of New Jersey, house. 

Q. AVhen you were there, what is the fact as to whether you 
had meals at the White House? 

A. I have had a great many meals at the White House. 
O. What was the family practice as to whether there was any 
liquid of an alcoholic kind served? 

A. Never any at all. unless there was company, and I was not 
considered company. 

Q. Now% during the time your cousin was President he spent 
his summer vacation at Oyster Bay f 
A. Yes. 

O. Was that al»out the time your father would be there and 
your family? 

A. Yes. I was there. es])ecially the summers when he was Presi- 
dent. 

O. Now, did you indulge in any recreation with him? 
A. Yes. we used to go riding together and used to play tennis 
together. 

O. Now, have you ever been present when there was company? 
A. Yes. on numerous occasions. 

O. AVhat can you say as to whether there was a habit of your 
cousine. the elder Theodore Roosevelt, to indulge in intoxicating 
liquors ? 

A. I never have seen whiskey or brandy served at Sagamore 
Hill. I have at times seen my cousin Theodore take a glass of 
sherrv-, sometimes a glass of Madeira, but usually, particularly in 
the summer, when it was warm, a glass of iced white wine and 
Apollonaris. 

O. He did that what part of the day, any time or meal time? 
A. Only at meal time. 
Q. Only at meal time? 
A. Yts. 

Q. To what extent, in what ([uantities would he take any of 
those at any meal ; in other words, I want to direct your attention to 
the number of glasses? 

A. Never more than two, and that very exceptionally. 

320 



Q. During the time he would be here, would you be in the house 
at luncheon? 

A. Yes, any time I wanted to go, stay all night. 

Q. Now, then, in 1912, were you at Chicago? 

A. Yes. 

Q. As part of his party or on your own hook? 

A, I was there as his private secretary. / 

Q. How much of the time were you in his company? 

A. All the time. 

Q. Mrs. Roosevelt was there? 

A. She was there at the Republican Convention. 

Q. Now, at that time, when others — that is, I mean by that 
anybody else outside of the family — were you debarred from see- 
ing your cousin? 

A. I never was. I used to take him messages in his bathroom. 

Q. During the Republican Convention what part of the day 
were you there? 

A. About twenty- four hours a day. 

Q. Where did you sleep, what sleep you got? 

A. I went eighty-eight hours without any sleep, I remember 
that very well. 

Q. What I am trying to get at is, when you did get a chance, 
when you did get a chance and before it began to get so hot, where 
was your room? 

A. Right near his, right next to his. The only sleep I got was 
in his bed. 

Q. When you went into his room, how did you go in. would 
you knock or what? 

A. No, just walked right in. 

Q. Did you have occasion to go and see him generally during 
the night or day? 

A. About every thirty seconds. 

Q. Who carried messages and telegrams and so forth to him? 

A. I answered that. I took them in to him. 

Q. When he dined? i 

A. I took all my meals with him. 

Q. Now, then, on that trip — did you leave Oyster Bay with him 
when he went to Chicago? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you come home with him after that? 

A. Yes.' 

321 



Q. On that trip what liquor was taken? 

A. None. 

Q. What liquor did he use, if any. at the table? 

A. Xone. 

O. Do vou remember, on one occasion, in New Orleans or 
Little Rock, something about a loving cup? 

A. I do very well, indeed. 

O. \Miat was there about that, what connection did he have 
with it? 

A. At lunch I think it was at Little Rock, and the question of 
accusations of drinking that had been made against him came up 
and it was noted there was nothing there, and he said: "Now, if 
there was a mint julep I would probably take something, but I 
really don't care for anything at all," and in a little while this 
loving-cup appeared with a very fine Arkansas mint julep in it. 

Q. How many mint juleps did he take on that occasion? 

A. He just tasted the loving-cup and passed it around. 

Q. What do you say from your intimate acquaintanceship with 
your cousin, from your observation, your earliest recollection up 
to the present time, as to whether he has ever been under the in- 
fluence of liquor? 

A. I should say he has never been. 

Q. What would you say as to his use of liquor, whether he is 
a free drinker or a man in the habit of making use of an excess of 
liquor, or using it temperately, or sparingly, or a Prohibitionist? 

A. He is a very sparing drinker. 

Q. Now. you have heard his conversation, have you not, many 
times ? 

A. Very often. 

Q. What can you say as to whether it is clean or unclean ; did 
he use any obscene language? 

A. I never heard him use any obscene language. 

O. Now, after exercising or playing tennis, if there was any- 
thing taken in the way of liquid refreshments, what would it be, 
at Oyster Bay? 

A. We used to have a lemonade ; cousin Theodore used to take 
iced tea ; he always preferred that. 

Q. Have you ever seen Col. Roosevelt take a drink of any 
liquor? 

A. Never. 

322 



Q. Malt or any liquid in your life as an appetizer to prepare 
himself for a meal? 

A. I never have seen him except at meals. 

Q. Now, does he drink what is called table waters at times ? 

A. What we call "Poly" water, Apollonaris, he takes oc- 
casionally with white wine; otherwise he drinks plain spring water. 

Q. Plain spring water? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. Pound: — Take the witness. 



James E. Amos, called and sworn as a witness, testified in be- 
half of the plaintiff as follows: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Examined by Mr. Pound:— Q. Your name is James E. Amos? 

A. James E. Amos. 

O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. 34 years old. 

Q. Where were you born, Mr. Amos? 

A. Washington, D. C. 

O. How long did you live in Washington? 

A. I lived in Washington. 

O. Until what age? 

A. I lived there until I was fifteen, and then I came to New 
York. 

O. How long did you live in New York? 

A. One year. 

O. What were you doing then, going to school or working? 

A. No, I was working. 

Q. At what? 

A. In a hotel. 

Q. Where did you go then? 

A. I went back to Washington. 

Q. Then you remained in Washington how long? 

A. I remained in \\'ashington then until I came to New York 
three years ago. 

Q. Now, when did you first get acquainted with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. About ten years ago. 

323 



O. Are you now in his employ? 

A. I am. 

O. What are your duties? 

A. I am custodian, I look after everything. 

Q. When was it you first became acquainted with him? 

A. About ten years ago. 

Q. What was his position then ? 

A. He was President of the United States. 

Q. What was your position at that time? 

A. Second butler at the White House. 

Q. How long had you been a butler at the White House at that 
time, about? 

A. Before or at the time 1 was in the White House? 

Q. Before you came into the employ of Mr. Roosevelt as 
President ? 

A. Three years. 

O. Then you had been selected and placed there during the ad- 
ministration of Mr. McKinley? 

A. No, 1 came just six months after Mr. Roosevelt was elected 
President. 

O. \\ ell, then, you remained with him from the time he came 
until the time — 

A. During his whole administration. 

Q. After that did you come to Oyster Bay with him? 

A. No, I went to the Customs Office. 

Q. W^iere? 

A. New York City. 

Q. Then you have been with Mr. Roosevelt now how long? 

A. About three years. 

O. Occu]\ving the same position you do now ? 

A. The same position. 

Q. Now, then, during the time you were in the White House, 
as we folks call it, did you see Mr. Roosevelt pretty frequently 
every day? 

A. Several times a day. 

Q. \\ hen he was in the city? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you live in the \\ hite House, you say? 

A. I did not stay in the White House, no. 

Q. You came there when? 

A. Every morning at half j^ast seven. 

324 



Q. Every morning at half past seven? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now, after the expiration of Mr. Roosevelt's term and dur- 
ing the time that he was away in Africa, where were you? 

A. In the Customs Office in New York City. 

O. New York City? 

A. Yes. 

O. Now, would it be part of your duty, IMr. Amos, to attend 
dinners, diplomatic dinners and others, that were given in the 
White House? 

A. Always. 

O. Now, during the time that Mr. Roosevelt was President, 
what can you say, at those diplomatic dinners, ^vhether you have 
seen Mr. Roosevelt drink any liquor whatsoever? 

A. Well, I have seen him take about half a glass of champagne 
at a dinner. 

O. What other liquor have you ever seen him drink, if any; or, 
did he drink any liquor, to your knowledge, at any of these dinners 
except champagne? 

A. Never, no. 

O. Your duties there were what? 

A. Second butler. 

O. What are the duties of a second butler? 

A. Looking after the tables, to see that they were properly set 
and all those things. 

O. Now, will you tell me what you can say, during the time he 
was President, as to how many drinks of champagne, if you can 
place any limit upon it, that the Colonel ever took at any one 
dinner ? 

A. I always served the President the champagne myself ; that 
was my job, to serve the champagne, and I never yet have served 
him with more than one full glass of champagne. 

O. Now, what do you say, in the times outside of the diplomatic 
dinners and the other dinners, official dinners — I don't care what 
you call them — I am including all dinners there were in the White 
House — what I mean is in the domestic affairs of Colonel Roose- 
velt ; what would you have to do in the supervision or spreading of 
the table? 

A. The same as I did before, just exactly the same as I did at 
receptions. 

325 



Q. Will you state what the fact is regarding Col. Roosevelt's 
consumption of liquor when he and his family were alone" 
A. Not any. 

O. Now, then, at Oyster Bay, to a greater or less extent, your 
duties were the same but on a smaller scale? 
A. Upon somewhat smaller scale. 
Q. Except that you were at the head? 
A. Yes, exactly. 
Q. You have entire charge? 
A. Of everything. 

Q. Now. since his departure from the White House and while 
he has resided at Oyster Bay, on the occasion of guests being in 
attendance, what is the fact as to whether or not there was wine or 
not served as a refreshment, whatever it might be? 

A. Yes. I have served him about a glass of sherr)' possibly at 
dinner or a glass of Madeira. 

Q. What would you say as to his habits in his own house with 
his own family, whether he uses any wine even or not ? 

A. A\'ell, he takes, as I said, a glass of sherry for dinner or a 
glass of Madeira ; or. in the summer about a glass of white wine. 
O. Did you say "or a glass of white wine," or "and a glass of 
white wine"? 

A. No, just one thing or the other. 
Q. Whatever it is, it is at dinner? 
A. Yes, at dinner, 7 130. 

O. At breakfast, what did the Colonel use during the time he 
was President, and at Oyster Bay in the way of drinkables? 
A. Nothing. 

Q. Now. I am covering the whole thing, water or coffee? 
A. Coffee always for breakfast. 
Q. At lunch? 
A. Tea. 

Q. Your meals would be divided between breakfast, lunch and 
dinner? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Your dinner would be served about six ? 
A. Dinner served at 7 130. 

Q. Now. then, you will tell me who had charge of the liquors 
in the White House, while the Colonel was there, while you were 
in the emi)lov of the Covernment, and who had charge of the 
liquors in the Colonel's home in Oyster Bay while you were there? 

326 



A. Who had the keeping of the Hquors? 
Q. Yes, who had the keys ? 

A. WilHam Duncan, the head butler; had the keys in the White 
House, and I had the keys at Sagamore Hill. 
Q. That is, at his home in Oyster Bay? 
A. Yes. 

Q. What do you know about Mr. Duncan ; I call your attention 
to him; how did he come to work, like you? 
A. At the same time. 

Q. Then, you would be in the W^hite House during the entire 
time Duncan would be there? 
A. Always. 

Q. What can you say as to what Colonel Roosevelt did then as 
to whether or no he would go at any time and help himself? 

A. He could not ; it was impossible. 

Q. Did he have the keys, as far as you know? 

A. He did not. There were but two keys. Duncan had one and 
I had the other. 

Q. Now, did he ever call upon you to serve him outside of the 
time you have mentioned when there was company there? 

A. Never. 

O. Now, where would Mr. Duncan's place be? 

A. He was the head butler in the White House. 

Q. I know he was, but did he have any particular spot or kind 
of place or office? 

A. No, only the pantry; we always stayed in the pantry. 

O. Now, what is the fact as to whether or not the Colonel ever 
asked for, or you ever furnished or Duncan ever furnished, to your 
knowledge, or did he ever ask, to your knowlege, for any liquor 
outside of what was served on the table? 

A. No. 

Mr. Andrews: — That I object to and move to strike out the 
answer because the witness could not have known. 

Mr. Pound: — I am only asking him for what he knows. 

Mr. Andrews : — You asked him a question that could not be 
answered of his own knowledge. 

Q. All right. Now. then, from the time you first saw Col. 
Roosevelt to the present day, how many times have you ever seen 
him in the slightest under the influence of liquor? 

A. Never. 

327 



O. Now, during your present occupation or employment, where 
do you live? 

A. I live at Sagamore Hill. 

O. Relative to the house of the Colonel, where? 

A. About i,ooo yards from the house. 

Q. Have you ever seen Col. Roosevelt drink any other liquor, 
such as whiskey or brandy or gin — that is about my limit? 

A. Never. 

Mr. Andrew^s: — How^ about cocktails? 

O. How about beer? 

A. Xever. 

O. Did he use any beer? 

A. No. 

O. How about cocktails; the gentleman wants to know about 
cocktails ? 

A. I never served one in the house to anybody. 

O. You say you never served one to anybody. How many 
cocktails did Col. Roosevelt ever drink, to your knowledge? 

A. Not one. 

O. Now, do you know the Hon. Joseph Cannon of Illinois, 
Speaker of the House of Representatives? 

A. I do. 

Q. Now, you remember they call him "Uncle Joe" down there, 

don't they? 

A. Yes, they did. 

O. Do you remember his having a celebration of his birthday 
while he was speaker, in Nineteen hundred and either six, seven 
or eight ? 

A. I can't remember the year, but he did have a birthday cele- 
bration. 

Q. What I am getting at is the year; more than one that you 

know of? 

A. Just one. 

Q. You can identify the fact that that was held? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Were you in attendance in any way on that ? 

A. I saw Mr. Roosevelt immediately — 

Q. No, answer the question. 

A. At the dinner? 

Q. Yes? 

A. No. 

328 



Q. Now, then, do you know the fact from Col. Roosevelt say- 
ing that he attended the dinner, that Col. Roosevelt attended that 
dinner of Uncle Joe Cannon's, they called him? 

A. He did. 

Q. Will you tell me whether you saw the Colonel, then Presi- 
dent, before he started to go, ostensibly, to this entertainment? 

A. Yes, I did. 

Q. Will you state as to wdiat condition he w^as in as to being 
drunk, sober or partly inebriated or wholly drunk? 

A. Absolutely sober. 

Q. Did you see him on his return ? 

A. I did. 

Q. On that occasion, when you did see him, in what condition 
was he as to being sober, partly intoxicated or wholly intoxicated? 

A. Absolutely sober. 

Q. Was there a trace of liquor on him on either occasion? 

A. Absolutely no. 

Q. Where was it you saw him before he started for the enter- 
tainment ? 

A. In the library in the White House. 

Q. You were there? 

A. I was. 

Q. Where was it you saw him on his return ? 

A. In the library in the White House. 

Q. In a general way, w^hat was he doing in the library on his 
return ? 

A. He always came to the library when he came home to look 
over his papers with Mr. Loeb. 

Q. That is, to keep in touch with the business? 

A. Exactly. 

Q. Now. it has been testified in this case that the Colonel was 
in the habit, when he was President, of being shaved each day at 
noon; what is your recollection about that custom? 

A. Well, he was shaved each day — I can't say it was noon — it 
depended upon how much business he had. 

O. That is what I want to get at. Was there any certainty as 
to the time? 

A. No; sometimes it w^as five or six o'clock in the evening, be- 
fore he dressed for dinner. 

Q. Who w^ould be present? A\^ere people generally going in 
and out during the time, publicly or not? 

329 



A. 1 have been there several times and all I ever saw there was 
Delaney. the barber. 

Q. Now, were newspaper reporters down there that you know 
of? 

A. I never saw one. 

Q. You never saw one? 
A. No. 

Q. At any time during your acquaintanceship, for the ten years' 
acquaintanceship with Col. Roosevelt, wiiat can you say as to 
whether you have heard him ever indulge in any profanity? Now, 
I mean by that the taking of the name of God or the (iodhead in 
vain ? 

A. 1 never heard him once. 

Q. T suppose that during the time you were in Washington em- 
ployed by the Government your duties kept you there ? 

A. Nearly always. 

O. What the Colonel did when he was away, you don't ])retend 
to know ? 

A. I do not. 

Q. That is also true or it is true, that since you have been in 
his emi)]oy for the last three years, your duties have kept you at 
Sagamore Hill ? 

A. Absolutely, always, when he was there. 

Q. And all you know about him is when he was there." 

A. When he was there. 

Q. That is all you are pretending to testify to? 

A. Yes. 

O. Now, in the wine-room and li(|uor room, T supi)0se there are 
all kinds of liquor, are there not? 

.\. There were all kinds of liquor. 

Q. Well, now, T am going to call your attention to this. Would 
they have gin there? 

A. No. 

Q. That would be one of the articles not so much in demand. I 
suppose? Would they have .'^tout? 

A. No. 

Mr. Andrews: — ^Have what? 

Mr. Pound: — .Stout. 

Mr. Andrf.w.s: — What might that be? 

Mr. Pound:- — You are not an Englishman or of English descent. 

330 



Q. How many brands of whiskey did they have, only Ken- 
tucky ? 

A. Two. 

Q. What were they? 
A. Rye and Scotch. 

Q. \\'hat other liquor, if you can recall it now, did they have 
as part of the wine-room? 

A. Sherry, and there was possibly a little Russian wine there, 
but that didn't belong to the wine-room. That was sent by differ- 
ent people. 

Q. How did the champagne come? 

A. Well, we had champagne there. I would get it by the case, 
two dozen bottles. If we had a dinner party of thirty or forty 
there, we would buy a case of champagne. 
O. But you didn't keep a stock on hand? 
A. No, there was not a stock of champagne in the cellar. 
O. How was the wine-room during the Roosevelt administration 
as compared with, or do you know how it was as compared during 
the previous administration .'' 

A. I could not tell you as to the previous administration. 
Q. You have now described all that there was? 
A. Yes. 

Q. Now. during the time you were at the President's Executive 
House, or at Oyster Bay or Sagamore Hill, how many drinks of 
whiskey have you ever seen Col. Roosevelt take? 
A. Not any. 
Q. Or brandy? 

A. I have never seen him take a drink of brandy. I have made 
a milk punch with about a teaspoonful of brandy in it for him. 

Q. Besides the wine you have described and this milk jHrnch. 
what other liquor have you known Col. Roosevelt, in your life, to 
have ever made use of? 

A. Not any except what I have described already. 
Q. Now. when was it that he indulged in the milk i)unches ; 
that is. morning, noon or night? 

A. At night. I think they were ordered by the doctor. I am 
not certain. 

Mr. Pound:— I don't care about that. T consent to have that 
stricken out. 
Q. At night? 

A. Yes, at night before going to bed. 

331 



Q. When were they used ; was it after the Colonel had returned 
from some traveling trip or speaking trip, or do you know anything 
about that? 

Mr. Andrews: — How can he know? 

Mr. Pound: — He can onlrknow by report. 

Mr. Andrews : — I object to it. It is simply a suggestion to the 
witness. 

O. I only want your best knowledge. Was the Colonel away 
during a day or several days prior to the time that was given ? 

A. As a rule when he came back from a long speaking trip or 
been away for a month, when he came back. He never asked me 
for it. I did it myself. I would make him a little milk punch be- 
fore he went to bed and give it to him. 

O. What can you say, from your observation of Mr. Roosevelt 
for the last ten years whether he is a man that liberally indulges in 
liquor or is a drunkard, or a man in the habit of occasionally 
getting drunk, or is he a temperate man ? 

A. I would call him a temperate man from what I have seen 
him drink. I don't drink anything myself, but I would call him a 
temperate man. 

O. Of course I am not asking about a prohibitionist. That is, 
a man that does not drink anything. AX'hat you have seen him take 
is in very small quantities, is that right ? 

A. Yes. 

Mr. Andrews: — I object as leading. 

Mr. Pound: — You can take the witness. That is all. 



DEPOSITION OF LYMAN ABBOTT. 
Lyman Abbott, called and sworn as a witness, testified in be- 
half of the plaintitT as follows: 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

Bv ]\1r. Bowers: — O. Now, Doctor Abbott, I am going to ask 
vou to give me your name, your residence and occupation? 

A. Lyman Abbott: Cornwall-on-thc-Iludson ; Editor of the 
Outlook : yj years of age. 

O. Are you a man of family? 

A. Yes. 

Q. What is the nature of your business? 

A. Clergyman and editor. 

332 



Q. Of what papers have you been editor? 

A. As editor of the Outlook most of the time. 

Q. How many years? 

A. I am awfully poor on dates, but I can say 40 years. 

Q. That is a publication published in New York City? 

A. Yes, formerly known as the Christian Union. When I say 
40 years that includes the Christian Union. 

Q. And having a circulation — 

A. All over the United States; all over the world, in fact, 
chiefly in the United States. 

Q. As editor of that paper, have you been in the habit of 
writing ? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Both editorial and news articles? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Have you done any such writing otherwise than for that 
paper? 

A. Occasionally. 

Q. You know the plaintiff in this case? 

A. Yes. 

Q. How long have you known him? 

A. I think my first acquaintance with him was when he was 
police commissioner of this city. 
Q. New York City? 

A. Yes, but I had no real acquaintance with him until he be- 
came Governor of the State. 

Q. How much did you see of him when he was Governor of 

the State? 

A. Three or four times at Albany — three times certainly. 

Q. On public matters? 

A. Yes, on his invitation. 

Q. His invitation to you to attend personal interviews? 

A. Yes, certainly. 

Q. Which you did? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Did you see anything of him on those occasions except to 
express your views? 

A. On one occasion I dined at his house and spent the night. 

Q. In Albany? 

A. In Albany. 

333 



O. That was in what year, 1898 or 1899? 

A. It was while he was Governor. 

O. All you can say it was while he was Governor? 

A. Yes. 

O. You remember, do you not, that after his term of Governor 
expired he went to Washington ? 

A. Yes. 

O. Did your acquaintance then continue with him? 

A. More intimately. 

O. What position did he hold when you first went to Wash- 
ington ? 

A. Vice-President. 

O. He went there as Mce-President? 

O. Did you see anything of him while he was \'ice-President ? 

.\. I think not. 

O. After he was President? 

A. After he was President I saw him certainly three or four 
times every year, during both of his terms. 

O. That would cover a period of about six years or more? 

A. lietween six and seven. 

O. \\'here did you see him? 

A. Sometimes at the White House; including Oyster l^)ay 
oftener than three or four times a year; three or four times a year 
at the White House. 

O. What was the nature of those visits? 

.V. 1 always went at his request to give him my views on certain 
questions on which he wanted them. 

O. You mean public questions? 

A. Yes. 

Q. On public questions on which he was about to act? 

A. Yes, on which he was about to act or express himself. 

O. Were those interviews had with him or those expressions b\ 
you in private or public conference? 

A. Private conference ; private except there were other gentle- 
men present. 

O. At Albany what was the character of your expressions of 
opinion or advice in public or private conference? 

A. Private conference. 

O. This continued all the time he was President? 

A. Yes. 

334 



O. What was the nature of your visits to Oyster Bay? 

A. Of the same sort, it was during the summer when he was 
there, when the White House was transferred to Oyster Bay. 

O. W^hen you went to the White House where did you stop? 

A. Generally at one of the hotels. On several occasions I was 
a guest of the White House. 

Q. W^hen you went to Oyster Bay, where did you stop? 

A. I think I was only at Oyster Bay over night once. The other 
times I went and returned the same day. 

Q. Once you stopped over night? 

A. Once I think ; I am sure not more than once. 
' Q. After his second term of office expired as President, do you 
recall that he went to Africa ? 

A. Yes. 

O. And he returned in the early summer of 1910? 

A. That is my recollection ; June, I think. 

Q. Did you see him on his return ? 

A. I saw him when he returned, when he landed. 

O. How much did you see him after that? 

A. From that time to this I have spent three or four hours every 
Tuesday with him except on rare occasions when either he or I 
would be out of town or some special engagement has taken us 
away. 

Q. What has been the occasion of your spending three or four 
hours on Tuesdays with him? 

A. From about 1 1 to i we are in editorial conference, discussing 
the topic the Outlook is to treat the next week ; from i to 2 or 
3 we are at luncheon and the editorial conference to a certain ex- 
tent continues. 

p. When did ]\Ir. Roosevelt come connected with the Outlook? 

A. At the close of his second Presidential term. 

O. At whose request? 

A. At our request, at the request of the publishers of the Out- 
look. 

O. What was the position you requested him to take? 

A. Contributing editor. 

0. What are the duties of the contributing editors? 
A. The understanding between us and him is that he is at 
liberty to write whatever he likes, and that we are at liberty to ex- 
press whatever opinion we wish to express respecting what he 

335 



writes. He is absolutely free. He will also give us his counsel 
on those questions about which we think he is especially informed 
and on which we especially desire his counsel. 

Q. Does he write for the Outlook? 

A. Practically every week. 

Q. Where does he do that writing? 

A. Sometimes at the Outlook office and sometimes at Oyster 
Bay. 

Q. Is that all you have seen him, once a week? 

A. No, I have often seen him twice a week. He has often been 
there on Friday, and I have been there on Friday. That is our 
press day, as we call it. 

Q. Have you, during your acquaintance with Mr. Roosevelt, 
noticed anything concerning the use by him of wines, liquors or 
spirits of any kind? 

Mr. Cottox : — That calls for yes or no. 

The Witness : — Yes. 

Q. Will you please state what you have noticed? 

A. That he had never, when I have been present, taken any 
whiskey, brandy or other distilled liquors, that he has never taken 
any beer; I don't think I have ever seen him take any champagne. 
That he has taken light white wine. I never have seen any red 
wine served at his table. At our editorial lunches I should say he 
never drank any wine, though it may be on some special occasion 
when we had special guests he may have shared in a glass of white 
wine. His ordinary beverage is milk, occasionally tea. 

O. How often have you seen him use white wine? 
A. jMy recollection is that he never used it, and it was not 
served at Oyster Bay, except possibly on one occasion when there 
was a rather formal lunch party. At the White House, I think, 
white wine was ordinarily served at luncheon, but I should say he 
took it rarely ; but I never made it my business to watch him, or to 
keep account of him. 

O. As to luncheons that were taken with you for several years 
past? 

A. I should say he has never taken any wine nor spirituous 
liquor of any kind, unless, possibly, when there has been a special 
guest at his side, at the table, and he has taken it with them. 

Q. White wine? 

A. \\' hite wine. 

336 



Q. Have you ever seen him under the influence of wine, Hquor 
or spirits? 

A. Never. 

Q. Have you formed from your acquaintance with him any 
opinion as to the question of his being temperate, or not, in the use 
of wines, hquors and spirits? 

]\Ir. Cotton : — Please answer "yes" or "no." 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you please state the opinion? 

]\Ir. Cotton: — That is objected to as incompetent, irrelevant 
and immaterial; calling for the opinion of the witness, and not 
for facts. 

A. I should say he was decidedly temperate both in his eating 
and his drinking of every kind ; and decidedly abstemious in his 
use of wine, and a total abstainer so far as beer and distilled liquors 
are concerned. 

^[r. Bowers : — That is all. 



DEPOSITION OF GEN. LEONARD WOOD. 

Leonard Wood, called and sworn as a witness, testified as fol- 
lows : 

DIRECT EXAMINATION. 

By Mr. Bowers : — O. Please give us your name, your business, 
your residence and your age? 

A. Leonard Wood; 52 years; soldier; Fort Meyers, Virginia. 

O. How long have you been in the army? 

A. Since June, '85. Under commission since January 5th, '86. 

O. And what was your first commission? 

A. My first commission was First Lieutenant and Assistant 
Surgeon. 

Q. And please state the ranks you have held since that time 
and the different commissions? 

A. I was afterwards promoted to Captain and Assistant .Sur- 
geon, Colonel First U. S. Volunteer Cavalry, Regular General 
Volunteers, Major-General Volunteers, Brigadier-General \'nlun- 
teers, Major-General Volunteers, Brigadier-General Regular Army, 
IMajor-General Regular Army. 

O. And your present position? 

A. Major-General Regular Army, Chief of Staff. 

337 



O. You are a man of family? 

A. Yes, sir, wife and three children. 

O. Do you know the plaintiff in this case, Theodore Roosevelt? 

A. I do. 

Q. And you know him how long? 

A. Since the winter of '96 and '97. 

O. \\'here was he then residing? 

A. In Washington, D. C. 

O. And where were you residing then? 

A. In ^^^ashington, D. C, No. 2000 R Street. 

O. What position, if any, did he hold at that time? 

A. He was Assistant Secretary of the Navy. 

O. What was the nature of your acquaintance with him? 

A. It was a personal acquaintance which threw us together a 
great deal. We were both fond of outdoor exercise, especially 
walking and riding, and I saw a great deal of him in that way. 

O. That was in the years 1896 and 1897? 

A. The winter of '96 and '97. 

O. Can you state at all how much you saw of him, whether it 
was weekly or daily? 

A. It was our custom to take a walk or a run almost every day, 
and usually we met about four or five o'clock as soon as he was out 
of his ofiice and I was out of mine and went for a run or a tramp 
somewhere. 

O. That would be in the afternoon? 

A. In the afternoon. 

Q. Was that all that you saw of him, or did you meet him at 
any other times? 

A. I used to meet him very frequently in a purely social way at 
dinners, and was occasionally at his house and he was occasionally 
at mine. 

O. You had no professional relations with him at that time? 

A. Not with him personally. 

O. Now. after the winter of 1896 and '97. did you continue to 
see him. the plaintiff"? 

A. I saw him very constantly until up to and during the early 
stages of the Spanish war. We were thrown together in the way 
which I have mentioned all during the time he was in Washington 
up to the outbreak of the Spanish war. 

Q. What date was that? 

338 



A. That was — I don't remember the date of the declaration of 
war, but early in May I left for San Antonio and he joined me a 
few days later. 

O. May of what year? 

A. May of 1898. 

O. What was his position at that time? 

A. Assistant Secretary of the Navy until he left Washington. 
Then he became Lieutenant-Colonel of the First V^olunteer Cavalry 
— the regiment of which I was Colonel. 

O. What was the history after that time of the regiment, which, 
I take it, would be the history of your life and Mr. Roosevelt's life 
during that period? 

Mr. Cotton : — I object to the question as incompetent, im- 
material and irrelevant. 

jMr. Bowers : — I will reform the question. 

O. Please proceed to state what you and ]\Ir. Roosevelt did 
after that? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt reported at San Antonio and became 
Lieutenant-Colonel of the regiment. Remained with it until we 
went to Tampa, duri'ng our encampment in Tampa and proceeded 
with it in Cuba, took part in the Santiago campaign, remained with 
the regiment until its departure from the L'nited States along about 
the first of August. 

O. What year? 

A. "98. I then saw nothing more of him until, I think, January 
of the following year, as I remained in Cuba. 

O. You say out of the United States. Where did the regiment 
go? 

A. It went from Tampa directly to Cuba and took part in the 
Santiago campaign. 

O. You did not go with it? 

A. Yes, I went with it. 

O. And where was he then? 

A. He was with it as Lieutenant Colonel. 

O. You say the regiment went out of the L'nited States, when 
was that? 

A. We sailed from Tampa in the early days of June. I forget 
the exact day of our sailing. I landed at Santiago, I think, on the 
22nd of June, near Santiago. 

O. And you and he were together all that time? 

A. We were together constantly. 

339 



O. And when did you come back from Cuba? 

A. I came back from Cuba for ibe first time for a day "r two 
only in January 1909, and returned immediately to Cuba. 

O. \\'bere was ]\Ir. Roosevelt during all tbat time? 

A. Mr. Roosevelt was tben in tliis country. He came back witb 
tbe regiment in the early days of August. The regiment came 
home, and 1 was detached and made a general officer and left as 
Governor of the conquered territory. That was at the time of the 
separation. 

O. He came back in August in 1909 with a regiment - 

A. Yes, went to 3iIontauk. 

O. Up to that time how much did you see of Col. Roosevelt?. 

A. Well. I saw a great deal of him. My association w^ith him 
in Washington was almost daily and as Lieutenant Colonel of the 
regiment we occupied adjoining tents and at times the same tent 
and were very much together, and we at at the same mess, and 
our relations as Colonel and Lieutenant, of course, brought us into 
contact many, many times every day. 

O. During all that period and covering both the Washington 
period and the periotl when you and he were in the same regiment, 
and until he returned with the regiment in August, 1898, what have 
you to sav as to his habits concerning the use of wines, liquors or 
spirits ? 

]Mr. Cottox : — Objected to as immaterial, incompetent and ir- 
relevant ; further, that the time is too remote, and it has not any 
relevancy on the issues involved in this action as of this time. 

O. I will change my question to say, during that period, had you 
known as to his habits as to the use of wine or spirits? 

Mr. Cotton: — Same objection, and of course that calls for an 
answer, yes or no. 

^1r. Bowers: — just answer yes or no. 

The Witnes.s: — 1 had. 

O. Now, will you please state what that knowledge was? 

Mr. Cotton : — I object to that. The same objections as were 
urged. 

]\Ir. Bowers: — Will you answer please. 

A. I never saw Col. Roosevelt take a drink of what you w(^uld 
call strong liquor. 

O. When vou use the expression "what we w'ould call strong 
liquor." will you explain that? 

340 



A. I mean any of the forms of whiskey, brandy, rum, gin or 
Hquors of that type. I have very seldom seen him take a drink of 
any kind of wine. Very rarely some light wine, but very, very 
seldom. 

O. When you use the expression "light wine," what do you 
mean ? 

A. I refer expressly to the white wine. I never saw him drink 
any red wines. 

O. What about champagnes ? 

A. Champagne? You have only covered up to that date. I 

have no recollection of ever seeing him drink anything. Only one 

occasion where I have any recollection of his taking a drink. We 

• had had a very long tramp one day, and I think at his house he 

mixed up a little Rhine wine and some sort of water — • 

]\Ir. Cotton : — General, pardon me. But does this cover the 
particular time that counsel has inquired about or is it subsequent. 

The Witness: — -This covers only the period up to the end of 
the Spanish war and not the period since. 

O. And you recollect his mixing some white wine and water 
once during that period? 

A. At a lunch. That is the only recollection I have. 

O. Does your recollection cover all the period that you and he 
were engaged in the Spanish war? 

A. Yes, it covers entirely that period. 

O. Then there is no period that you recollect his using even any 
white wine while he was in service? 

A. I never saw him take a drink of anything of that sort. 

O. When you use the words "of that sort," you mean wines, 
liquors or spirits? 

A. Wines, liquors or spirits. 

O. After '98 when did you next see Col. Roosevelt? 

A. I did not see him when I came home on that following trip 
in January, '99. He was then in Albany, I think. I was back in 
the country again for a few days in June, '99. I did not see him 
on that occasion. I came back again in December and did see Mr. 
Roosevelt. 

O. December of '99? 

A. December of '99. T think I met him for a moment then, 
only, m New York. But it was only just a passing meeting. I 
saw practically nothing more of him until after Mr. ^^fcKinley's 

341 



inauguration — after ^Ir. McKinley's death. I came back from 
Cuba then— Mr. Roosevelt was President— at rather frequent inter- 
vals. On account of the business connected with the military — I 
was the Military Governor, and I saw a great deal of Mr. Roose- 
velt. 

Q. How long were you in Cuba? 

A. I was in Cuba four years lacking a month. 

Q. And you came to Washington during that period after Mr. 
]\IcKinley's death and saw the President? 

A. I saw the President, but I saw most of the President after I 
came back early in June of 1902. after we had turned over the gov- 
ernment to the Cuban people. 1 was in the country then until, I 
think, the 31st day of August, and for a portion of the time was 
living with Mr. Roosevelt at the White House as his guest. 

Q. 1902? 

A. 1902. 

Somewhere along from the latter part of June until some day 
in August. He asked me to come and stay with him. My family 
was in Europe and his family was away. I lived with him at the 
White House, and then when the reconstruction of the White 
House began I stopped with him for a time at a house that was 
rented up on Lafayette Square a week or two, and then I went 
abroad to the manouevres and came back in November. The 8th 
of November, I think, was the date of my return, and I was on 
duty in W'ashington and closing up the reports of the administration 
of the Cuban aiYairs until the 27th day of March, 1903. From that 
day I saw nothing of Mr. Roosevelt until November 1908. I was 
in the Philippines, going to and coming back and serving in the 
Phillippines nearly six years, but I saw him, of course, every day, 
several times a day during the period I was living with him and in 
the period between November 8th, 1902, and ^larch 27th, 1903, I 
saw a great deal of him. That was a period when we did a great 
deal of riding and had, T think, almost daily fencing exercises. 

Q. During that i)eriod that elapsed and including the visits that 
you made to the \A'hite House or to the President while you were 
still at the head of the Cuban administration and covering the 
period when you stopped with him at the White House or at the 
house in Lafayette Street, and covering also the period when you 
came from the manoeuvres in the autumn of 1902, and when you 
sailed for the Philippines towards the end of March, 1902. what 

342 



was the character of your Hfe with Mr. Roosevelt, how much did 
you see of him, what meals did you take with him, and any other 
general description you can give me of that life. 

j\Ir. Cotton : — That is objected to as incompetent, immaterial 
and irrelevant, too remote and nothing to do with the particular 
times at issue in this action. 

Q. Now, you can answer, please? 

A. During my short visits to Washington on business, I saw 
very little of Mr. Roosevelt. Probably dined with him. During 
the summer when I returned from Cuba I saw, of course, a great 
deal of him, being at practically all meals with him, unless by 
chance dining with some friend in Washington. During the winter, 
that is, from November to March, I dined with him at a good many 
official dinners, and very frequently he asked me to come in to 
lunch, to meet people and to talk over conditions in Cuba or some- 
thing of that sort, so that I saw him pretty frequently. And then 
the fencing and riding exercises through us together for an hour 
or so almost every afternoon. 

Q. Now, then, during that period did you notice whether he 
used wines, liquors or spirits at all, and if so, how much. 

Mr. Cotton : — The answer to that is merely yes or no. 

Mr. Bowers: — Yes, I will take out the latter part, "if so, how 
much." 

The Witness : — I would like to have the question repeated. 

(The stenographer repeats the question as follows.) 

"Q. Now, then, during that period, did you notice whether he 
used wines, or liquors, or spirits at all?" 

Mr. Cotton : — The question calls for a yes or no answer only. 

A. Yes. 

Q. Now will you please state what you noticed in that regard? 

A. I noticed that he never used spirits or liquors so-called, the 
stronger liquors, such as brandy, whiskey, rum, gin, and that he 
did occasionally use light wines. My recollection is ordinary — I 
don't mean to say his ordinary — the mixture that he used when 
he used anything was a mixture of light wine and some sort of 
aerated water. ' 

O. Will you please state to what extent you saw him use the 
white wine with or without aerated water? 

A. Very seldom. He is a man who seldom took any wine. 

Q. Now, then, I think you stated that you came back from the 
Philippines in the autumn of 1908? 
^ 343 



A. I think I landed in New York on the 8th of November, and 
reported in Washington the next day, or the day after, perhaps. 

O. Now, when did you see the plaintiff? 

A. I probably reported to him almost immediately on arrival, 
probably — my recollection is the 8th of November that year was a 
Sunday, I am not quite sure. 

O. He was still in office then as President? 

A. Yes, he was still in office. I reported to him probably the 
next day; I could not tell you the date without looking up my 
personal notes. 

O. Please go on and state what you saw of him after that date? 

A. November 8th — you are speaking now of November 8th, 
1908? 

O. Yes. 

A. I beg, then, to correct my last answer. I did not see him 
for several days. I landed in New York and was assigned to the 
command of the Eastern Department, with headquarters at Gov- 
ernor's Island, and went over to Washington a few days after that. 
He gave me — I think we were asked over to spend the night there, 
I am not quite sure, but I saw him in a rather informal way, and 
told him something of the experiences in the Philippines, and re- 
turned to my station. And I occasionally was called to Washington 
on official business, and he used to ask me to come in to lunch or 
dinner. 

O. That ran on for how long? 

A. That ran on until his term of office expired, and he went to 
Africa. 

O. That would be — the term of office expired on the 4th of 
March, 1909? 

A. 1909, yes. 

O. And after that time you have occasionally been in Wash- 
ington and taken meals with him? 

A. Yes, and then when he went out of office, and went down to 
Oyster Bay to live, I think during that period I only saw him per- 
haps three or four times ; once, I think, at the Outlook office, and 
I think twice at Oyster Bay. 

O. Now, as to what you saw during that period of time, of the 
answers that you made as to his using or not using wines, spirits 
and liquors the same that you gave with respect to that inquiry 
before ? 

344 



I 



Mr. Cotton : — I think that is objectionable. 

Mr. Bowers : — I withdraw it. 

O. During that period will you please state what you noticed as 
to his use of wines, liquors or spiritss? 

A. I noticed no change in his habits, as I had known them 
before. 

O. And as you have stated they were? 

A. And as I have stated before, yes, sir. 

O. Now, then, he was in Africa, and abroad, for a considerable 
period of time? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Do you remember when he came back? 

A. I was in South America as Ambassador to Argentine when 
he returned. I don't remember the exact date, but I think it was 
some time in July. 

O. When did you next see him, then? 

A. I returned in July. I did not see Mr. Roosevelt on my re- 
turn. I went immediately to Washington and assumed my duties 
as Chief of Staff. 

O. What date was that ? 

A. That was about the 19th of July, 1910. 

O. 1910? 

A. Yes. and I do not think I saw Mr. Roosevelt again until very 
late that fall. In fact, I have only seen him three or four times 
since his return from Africa. I don't think, at the most, more than 
half a dozen times. 

O. And where have been those visits? 

A. Once or twice in Washington, once by accident on a train, 
once in Philadelphia — the other night — and once at the Outlook 
office. I have seen him very seldom. 

0. During the occasions on which you have seen him since his 
return from Africa and Europe, was any use made by him of 
wines, liquors or spirits? 

A. Once: it was the time I met him accidentally on the train, 
and he asked Mrs. Wood and I if we would not come in and have 
lunch, with him. He said, "What will you have to drink?" I said, 
"Nothing, we were going to order a bottle of some light wine." He 
said, "Well. I will order something then." And to the best of my 
recollection we were the only ones who took any of the wine. I 
don't think he took any. He ordered a bottle of Riesling, or some 
light California wine. I don't remember what it was. I remember 

345 



that incident particularly because I rather laughingly said to him, 
"Do you think it is safe to have any wine on the table?" 

Mr. Cotton : — I make formal objection to that, and move to 
strike out the latter part of the answer as being incompetent and 
hearsay. 

Q. Now, did you form an opinion on the acquaintance you have 
specified with the plaintiff, as to his habits in the use of wines, 
liquors and spirits? 

A. Yes. 

Q. Will you please express that opinion? 

]\Ir. Cotton : — That is objected to as being incompetent, ir- 
relevant and immaterial ; as mere opinion, and incompetent under 
the issues in this action. 

O. You may answer. 

A. That he was a very abstemious and absolutely temperate 
man. 

^Ir. Cotton : — I move to strike that out as being opinion evi- 
dence, incompetent, and merely negative testimony. 

O. Did you at any time ever see him in any degree under the 
influence of wines or liquors ? 

A. No. 

Mr. Bowers : — That is all. 



DEPOSITION OF WILLIAM B. DULANY. 

William B. Dulany, produced as a witness on behalf of the 
plaintiff, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified 
as follows : 

By Mr. Pound: — O. How old a gentleman are you? 

A. Forty-seven. 

Q. Married or single? 

A. Widower. 

Q. Where were you born? 

A. Chattanooga. 

Q. How much of your childhood did you spend in Chat- 
tanooga ? 

A. They tell me six months. 

O. Where were you living the first place you have a recollec- 
tion of? 

A. Baltimore. 

346 



O. Up to what age, about, did you live in Baltimore? 

A. Six years. 

O. Where did you then remove to? 

A. Alexandria, Virginia. 

Q. How long did you live there? 

A. From 1871 to 191 1. 

O. How far is Alexandria from this city? 

A. It is suburban, seven miles. 

Q. Do you know the plaintiff in this suit, Mr. Theodore Roose- 
velt? 

A. Yes, sir. 

Q. Where did you first get acquainted with him? 

A. At the White House. 

O. Had you been in the White House before he became Presi- 
dent ? 

A. Yes. 

O. During whose administration had you gone there? 

A. Mr. McKinley's. 

Q. During what part of his first term did you go there? 

A. I was there in the latter part of his first term. 

Q. And prior to that time what had been your business? 

A. I was in the Post Office Department. 

O. In Washington? 

A. In Washington. 

Q. For how many year§ had you been connected with it? 

A. I was in the Post Office two years. 

Q. Before that what had been your business? 

A. Real estate business, and then I owned a large barber shop 
in Alexandria. 

O. Had you carried that on in Alexandria or here? 

A. In Alexandria. 

O. After Mr. Roosevelt became President, you continued in the 
position you occupied under President McKinley? 

A. Yes. I was detailed from the Post Office to the White 
House. 

O. Did you continue only part of the administration of Mr. 
Roosevelt ? 

A. I was there the whole time. 

Q. What was your position with Mr. Roosevelt? 

A. I was assigned as his confidential messenger. 

347 



O. Was it your peculiar duty to keep on watch, to do what was 
required of you by the tiien President? 

IsIr. Andrews: — I object to that as leading. 

A. Yes, sir. 

By rvlR. Pound: — O. What time of the day would you see him 
first ; w^iat hour did you go on ? 

A. At nine o'clock in the morning. 

O. To what hour did you work, or what hour did you go off? 

A. It would depend on how busy we were. Sometimes it would 
be as late as ii o'clock at night before I would leave; very often 
as late as eleven. 

O. Suppose you were not busy? 

A. I would leave at five o'clock, and take the 5:15 train for 
Alexandria. 

O. During that time would the President usually be in the office 
of the White House, if he was in the city of Washington? 

]\Ir. Andrews: — I object to that as leading. 

A. He would be in the White House until luncheon, which 
would be I :30 ; then he would return about 2 -.^o, and remain until 
3 :30. and without he was very busy, he would go out for a walk 
or a drive. 

O. And be gone about how long? 

A. He would be back about five or six o'clock — five o'clock. 

O. And vou say these times you have been there as late as 1 1 
o'clock at night. Where would he remain from the time he re- 
turned from the afternoon walk until the time you left? 

A. He remained usually at home. 

O. \\'ho would be there in his office, if anybody, besides 
himself? 

A. Mr. Loeb and myself. 

O. That is, the President's secretary and yourself? 

A. Yes, sir. 

O. Who was it who ushered in the callers? 

A. Very often I did. Rut Major Loeffler had charge. 

O. What was your state of health during INIr. Roosevelt's ad- 
ministration ? 

A. I never was verv vigorous, but I have always been able to 
keep on the job, as a rule. 

O. Were there any times when the President was in the city 
that vou, bv reason of sickness or otherwise, were away? 

348 



A. Once, when he was at Oyster Bay, one summer, I was away, 
not well. When he was at the White House I was always on duty. 
I never missed a day at the White House while he was there. 

O. Now. you take the other summers when he was away on 
vacation, where would you be? 

A. I spent the summers with him at Oyster Bay. 

O. So that with the exception of one summer you were with 
him all the year around ? 

A. All the time, every day, Sunday and all. 

O. And when you were at Oyster Bay, where did you stay? 

A. I stayed in the village. 

Q. Did you go on duty relatively the same hours you have 
already described? 

A. No, I went to and fro between Oyster Bay and his home. 

p. At the time there would be these dinners, diplomatic and 
other dinners, would you have anything to do with them? 

A. I would be very often present. 

O. And about how many of those are there in the course of a 
year, what you call big dinners? 

A. There are three realjy big dinners. 

Q. During the time that Mr. Roosevelt was President, who 
shaved him? 

A. I did. 

O. What time, if there was any particular time of the day, did 

he get shaved ? 

A. At one o'clack, as a rule. He very seldom varied that. 

Q. W'hat can you say as to what liquor you have seen Mr. 
Roosevelt ever drink? 

A. I have never seen him take a drink. 

By Mr. Pound: — I ask you now whether, while you were 
shaving Mr. Roosevelt, or at any time, did you ever see him under 
the influence of liquor? 

A. I have never seen him under the influence of liquor in my 

life. 

By Mr. Pound: — Q. Is he a man who talked dirty, filthy talk 

in your hearing? 

Mr. Andrew^s:— I object to that as improper and irrelevant. 

A. I never heard him tell a naughty joke or repeat a conversa- 
tion that would not do for any lady to hear. 

By Mr. Pound:— Q. Have you ever heard Theodore Roose- 

349 



velt indulge in any language, while he was President, or at any 
other time, that might not be stated in the presence of children or 
ladies ? 

A. I never have. 

~Mr. Andrews: — I wish to lodge an objection to that question, 
and ask that the answer be excluded, because it is improper and 
simply calls for the conclusion of the witness. 

By Mr. Pound : — Q. At how many of these State dinners — I 
use that term whether it is proper or not, but I suppose you under- 
stand — during the time Mr. Roosevelt was President, were you 
present ? 

A. I do not know how many. I attended a great many banquets 
where he was present. 

Q. There would be twenty-four of them in the eight years, sub- 
stantially, that he was there. Could you give me some idea of the 
number? 

A. I suppose I have attended at least a dozen banquets where 
he was. 

Q. There is one that we seem to be pretty well agreed on here, 
called the diplomatic dinner. Is there such a thing known as the 
diplomatic dinner? 

A. Yes, that is the main dinner. 

Q. Why is it called "diplomatic?" 

A. Because the diplomats, all the foreign ministers, are present, 
and all the representatives of foreign countries are present. 

O. What is the name of the other two dinners, if there are any, 
that are annually given? 

A. They give one for the Army and one for the Navy. Those 
are small, comparatively, to the diplomatic dinner. 

O. Have you attended, on occasions, the diplomatic dinners, so- 
called ? 

A. Yes. 

O. Can you tell me that, if any. liquor Mr. Roosevelt, while he 
was President, drank at the diplomatic dinners ? 

A. I have always seen his champagne glass filled, but 1 have 
never seen him drink. 

Q. During the entire eight years that. Mr. Roosevelt was \'ice- 
President and President, what can you say as to having seen him 
under any circumstances when you thought that anything foreign 
to himself, or inspired by the way of liquor, controlled his action? 

A. Never on any occasion. 

350 



O. What is the fact as to whether you have ever seen him 
stagger? 

A. That is foreign to my thought, to think of such a thing. 

O. You never did? 

A. I never did. 

O. Have you ever seen him at a time when, for any reason, he 
was in a condition that he could not talk without stuttering? 

A. Never. 

Q. Have you or have you not ever seen him in any condition 
that a decent, self-respecting man would not be in? 

AIr. Andrews: — I object to that as simply calling for a con- 
clusion of this witness. 

A. I have never. 

By Mr. Pound : — Q. Tell me what you can say, during the time 
you were associated with Mr. Roosevelt, either as President or at 
any other time, as to whether you have ever perceived on him the 
odor of liquor? 

A. I have. 

p. Do you ever remember on any of these occasions, or this 
particular occasion — that is. I mean this year, now, 1904 — of his 
calling Judge Parker a liar? 

AIr. Andrews: — I object to that as being irrelevant. 

A. No. 



DEPOSITION OF ADMIRAL DEWEY. 

Present : Counsel for the respective parties. 

Admiral George Dewey, United States Navy, produced as a 
witness on behalf of the plaintiff, having been first duly sworn, 
was examined and testified as follows : 

By Mr. Pound: — Your full name. Admiral? 

A. George Dewey. 

O. What is your age? 

A. Seventy-five. 

O. You were born in what State. Admiral? 

A. Vermont. 

O. And entered the Navy at what age? 

A. At sixteen years and nine months. 

O. And you have gone through the grades to the office you 
now hold? 

A. Yes. 

351 



Q. Are you accjuainted with Theodore Roosevelt, the plaintiff 
in this suit? 
A. Yes. 

Q. About how long have you known him? 

A. I have knowni him since he came here as one of the Civil 
Service Commissioners. That, I think, was about 1891, before he 
was Assistant Secretary of the Navy. 

Q. During that time, while he was a Civil Service Commis- 
sioner, did you get pretty well acquainted with him? 
A. Yes. 

O. And after he terminated his connection with that office and 
w^ent back to New York as Police Commissioner, would you see 
him then at all ? 

A. No, I did not see him wdiile he was Police Commissioner. 
O. As a matter of fact, did you see him during the incumbency 
of the office of Governor of New York? 
A. Yes. 
O. Where?* 

A. When 1 arrived in New York from the Philippines, in the 
last of September, 1889, he came on board the Olympia to w^elcome 
me to the State. 

O. During the time he was Governor do you remember of his 
having any occasion to l)c in \\'ashington ? 
A. I do not recall. 

O. You knew, of course, that he was elected \'ice-President 
of the United States? 
A. Yes. 

And upon his incumbency of that office on the 4th of ^larch. 

1901, and from that time up to and through the 3rd of March, 

1909, did you have more or less of an ac([uaintanceship with him." 

A. Yes. T had more than an acquaintanceship: I had a warm 

friendship with liim. 

Q. That is wdiat I desire to develop. What is the fact as to 
wdiether you have been at various and different times in his com- 
pany or not ? 

A. I have been many times in his company. 
O. It appears in the evidence here that there is a dinner given 
by the administration, whichever it is, known as the Navy dinner. 
Have you attended any of those that you can now recall ' 

A. The Army and Navy League, as it is called. Xo, I have 
never been to one. I am going to one next week for the first time. 

352 



Q. During the incumbency of President Roosevelt in the ad- 
ministration of the office of President, did you come in contact 
with him in reference to the dispatch of business that was under 
your control, more or less? 

A. Very often.. 

Q. What is the fact as to whether you consulted and discussed 
with him proposed schemes for the betterment of the matter you 
might have in hand? 

A. I did. 

O. Have you ever met the plaintiff socially, or in his family, in- 
dependent or officially? 

A. Very often. 

Q, Now, I ask you, Admiral, in your acquaintanceship with 
Theodore Roosevelt, have you ever seen him when you could tell 
by his talk or his action that he was under the influence of liquor 
in the slightest particular? 

A. I have noticed that all people at dinners, whether they drink 
anything or not, are more or less excited. I have seen teetotalers 
very excited, and I have seen Mr. Roosevelt at dinners where he 
would be full of spirits, full of life and animation. All who knew 
him knew his peculiarities in that respect. 

Q. Now I ask you this, you have indicated that you have been 
where he was. Have you ever seen him indulging in liquor to 
excess ? 

A. No, sir. 

Q. And beyond a natural enthusiasm you have seen on those 
occasions, have you noticed any other contributing cause to any 
situation in which he was, so far as his character or his conduct 
was concerned? 

A. No. 



George A. Newett, sworn in his own behalf, testifierl as fol- 
lows : 

Mr. Belden : — O. When and where were you born ? 
A. On a farm near Janesville, Wisconsin, in 1856. 
O. How long did you live there? 
A. Until I was sixteen years of age. 

O. How and in what manner did you gain your education? 

353 



A. In the district schools of that vicinity, attending in the 
winter and working on farms during the summer. 

Q. When did you come to Marquette County to hve? 

A. In 1873. 

O. Have you lived here ever since? 

A. I have lived here continuously ever since. 

Q. When did you begin newspaper work, and on what paper? 

A. In 1874 I began to work on the first paper established in the 
city of Ishpeming, the Iron Home, and continued with the paper 
until 1879, when I engaged in business for myself on my own 
paper, the Iron Ore. 

Q. Will you describe to the jury your weekly paper, the Iron 
Ore, what it covers? 

A. It is a weekly paper, common to enterprising towns of this 
region, and specializes in mining news, news of local mines, and 
also deals in news of mining camps throughout the country gen- 
erally. 

Q. In October, 1912, what was its circulation? 

A. From twenty-five hundred to three thousand, as near as I 
can recall. 

O. Over what territory was that principally distributed? 

A. It circulated principally in Marquette County, probably four- 
fifths of the publication, and the balance largely in the Upper 
Peninsula. 

Q. You may state whether or not you use wines or liquors 
yourself. 

A. I do not ; I am a teetotaler, and have very strong views on 
the subject. . .either do I use tobacco in any form. 

Q. You may state what offices you have held under the State 
administrations. 

A. I was commissioner of mineral statistics from 1896 to 1900. 
I was appointed first by Governor Rich, and my second term by 
Governor Pingree. 

O. State what offices, if any, you have held in the city of Ish- 
peming. 

A. I also held the position of postmaster from i(p5. and held 
that for two years, at the end of which time I resigned. I received 
my appointment from the plaintiff in this case. 

O. Have you held any other offices? 

354 



A. 1 have held numerous ofifices in town, and now I am presi- 
dent of the Ishpeming Advancement Association. 

Mr. Belden : — May it please the Court, the testimony in this 
case is of itself of such great importance that Mr. Xewett has re- 
duced his testimony to written form, and if counsel on the other 
side will permit me to give them a copy of this, I would like to have 
the witness go on and state in his own way the facts relating to this. 

Court : — That will be allowed. 

A. Prior to 191 2 I had been for many years a strong supporter 
of Theodore Roosevelt, recognizing him as a great Republican 
leader, and had frequently published editorials and other articles 
in the Iron Ore commending him and approving his policies, and I 
had therefore assisted in all his campaigns, not only by personal 
effort but also by financial contributions. Even in the primary 
campaign of 1912 I supported him as second choice for the Re- 
publican nomination. I mention these facts as indicating the im- 
possibility of my harboring any feeling of personal malice against 
the plaintiff. 

Some time before 1912 I began to hear statements from various 
sources that Mr. Roosevelt was drinking wines and liquors to ex- 
cess. During this period I took a trip through the w^estern country, 
passing through the States of Montana, Nevada and Arizona, as 
well as the intervening cities. The statements as to Mr. Roose- 
velt's excessive drinking were repeatedly made in my hearing in 
various sections by many persons whom I believed to be reputable, 
but notwithstanding this I was loath to credit them. I felt that 
there was a possibility that these persons were mistaken and there- 
fore thought the statements probably unwarranted. Late, during 
the winter of 1912, I took a trip to Florida, passing through Chi- 
cago and other cities en route, and spent several weeks at Belleair 
and other Florida points. During this trip the same statements as 
to Mr. Roosevelt's habits Avere repeated in a very circumstantial 
way, although no one was able to say that he had actually seen Mr. 
Roosevelt drink to excess, or personally knew that he did so. 

During this period I also talked with various reputable people 
in Ishpeming, and elsewhere than the places before mentioned, who 
claimed to know the conditions as they existed in Washington and 
in whose statements I had the utmost confidence, both as to their 
reliability and their opportunity to know the facts. 

During the spring of 19 12 newspapers came to me on our ex- 

355 



change li.-t. \arious of \vhich contained reference to Mr. Roose- 
velt's drinking habits. I saw and read these newspaper pubhca- 
tions. I-'rom the statements so made in these papers and all the 
information which had come to me from the other sources men- 
tioned, 1 felt that 1 could no longer doubt the truth of the state- 
ments which had been made, much as I regretted to believe them. 

\\'hen ]\Ir. Roosevelt was nominated for the presidency on the 
National Progressive ticket, T opposed his election, having been a 
life-long Republican and believing that the success of that party 
would be for the best interests of the countr}'. 

In October, 19 12, Mr. Roosevelt made a campaign trip through 
northern Michigan, and among other places spoke at Marquette on 
the 9th. I was present on that occasion and heard him speak. In 
the course of his address he made what I considered a most unjust 
attack upon our candidate for Congress, who was one of my life- 
long friends. This incident, together with the statements which 
had previously come to my knowledge, confirmed me in the opinion 
that Mr. Roosevelt ought not to be elected ])resident, and I con- 
cluded that it was my duty in opposition to his candidacy to publish 
the statements which I then believed to be true. T therefore wrote 
and published the article which is here complained of. This publi- 
cation was intended only as a blow to ^Ir. Roosevelt's candidacy 
for the position he then sought. In this publication I acted in entire 
good faith, believing that the facts stated were true and believing 
that as a publisher I owed the duty to my readers to make that 
statement. After this article was ])ublished on the 12th day of 
October, 1912, neither the plaintiff nor any one in his behalf noti- 
fied me that he claimed the charges so made were unfounded, nor 
did they request me to make any correction of the same. ( )n the 
contrary, this suit was commenced (October 25, 1912. and the service 
of the pa])ers constituted the first intimation I received that the 
article was complained of. 

After the commencement of this suit there was nothing for me 
to do but to prejKire to defend it, and 1 did so to the best of my 
ability, h'rom that time 1 proceeded to investigate the actual facts 
which could be shown by witnesses who would testify under oath. 
As I have said, up to the time of the publication my information 
had been through j^ersons who have claimed to have knowledge of 
the statements which had been made, and I went forward to verify 
those statements and determine the witnesses by whom they would 
be proven. Additional information came to me from various sec- 

356 



tions of the country, as this case had been given wide publicity. 
Both my attorneys and myself went forward with the investigation 
of all this with great thoroughness, and in numerous places in 
various parts of the country we found reputable witnesses who 
were willing to swear that from observation during certain ad- 
dresses and public appearances of Mr. Roosevelt they believed he 
was intoxicated when they saw him. We have been unable, how- 
ever, to locate or produce witnesses who will swear that they have 
actually seen Mr. Roosevelt drink to excess. Upon this phase of 
the case when the statements attributed to such persons have been 
sifted it was found in each instance that the witness did not him- 
self know that Mr. Roosevelt had drank to excess, or that if he had 
made such claim he was unwilling to testify. It is fair to the plain- 
tifif to state that I have been unable to find in any section of the 
country any individual witness who is willing to state that he has 
personally seen Mr. Roosevelt drink to excess. I have taken the 
testimony in the form of depositions of more than forty reputable 
witnesses who have expressed the opinion that on those occasions as 
to which they testify he was intoxicated. I believe all these wit- 
nesses were honest in making their statements. I have relied upon 
those witnesses, but have recognized the lesser opportunities they 
have had to observe the plaintiff and his habits. 

I have been profoundly impressed during the progress of this 
trial by the nature and extent of the evidence produced by the plain- 
tiff to the extent that he did not in fact use liquor to excess on any 
occasion. I am unwilling to believe that these eminent men would 
purposely misstate the facts, or that under the circumstances re- 
lated by them and their intimate acquaintance with the plaintiff 
for so many years they could be mistaken as to his habits. I have 
therefore been forced to believe that those who have given de- 
positions or made the statement that in their opinion on the oc- 
casions to which they refer Mr. Roosevelt was intoxicated, had 
insufficient means and opportunity of correctly observing him, and 
were mistaken. 

Up to the time of this trial T had believed that the statements 
made in the article which T published were entirely warranted. 
But in the face of the unqualified testimony of so many dis- 
tinguished men who have been in position for years to know the 
truth, I am forced to the conclusion that I was mistaken. I am 
unwilling longer to assert that Mr. Roosevelt actually and in fact 
drank to excess. As a publisher of a newspaper I have never 

357 



knowingly done injustice to any man, and neither I nor my at- 
torneys are willing now to make or continue the assertion of an 
unjust charge against the plaintiff in this case. We have reached 
the conclusion that to continue expressly or implicitly to assert 
that Mr. Roosevelt drank to excess or actually hecame intoxicated 
as set forth in the article would do him an injustice. Since in 
puhlishing the article 1 acted honestly and in good faith, I propose 
at this time and throughout the remainder of the case to occupy a 
like position. My position throughout the introduction of my de- 
fense is and will he that in the puhlication 1 acted in good faitli and 
without malice. 

y\R. \'.\.\ r)i:.\c'ii(.Ti:x : — If the Court please, the |)laintirt has 
asked me to ask the Court if he may have the privilege of making 
a statement. 

Court : — The privilege is accorded. 

Mr. Roosexelt : — Your Honor, in view of the statement of the 
defendant. 1 ask the Court to instruct the jury that I desire only 
iu)minal damages. 

I did not go into this suit for money. 1 did not go into it for 
any vindicti\e puri)ose. 1 went into it, and. as the Court has said, I 
made my reputation an issue, because 1 wished, once for all during 
my lifetime, thoroughly and comprehensi\'ely to deal with these 
slanders, so that never again will it be p()ssil)le for any man, in 
good faith, to repeat them. 

1 have achieved my purpose, and 1 am content. 

Mr. Belijk.\ : — May I ask the indulgence of the Court to give 
us a recess of ten or fifteen minutes? 

Court: — It will be granted. 

(Recess.) 



Mr. Helde.x : — Tn view of the statement made by the plaintiff 
in this case, we have determined that further testimony will be 
unnecessary, and we therefore rest our case. 

.Mr. Pound: — May it jilease Your Honor, not only upon the 
statement of the defendant himself, and the concession of the plain- 
tiff, as to what he claims. 1 ask Your Honor to direct a verdict in 
this case in favor of the i)laintiff. as matter of law. 

358 



CHARGE OF THE COURT. 

Gentlemen of the Jury : 

The position which the plaintiff has now taken enables the Court 
to dispose of this case finally at this time. 

This action, which is for libel, followed upon the publication by 
the defendant of the statement that the plaintiff w^as frequently 
drunk. 

Libel is a malicious publication expressed in printing or writing, 
or by signs and pictures tending to blacken the memory of one 
dead, or the reputation of one who is alive and expose him to public 
hatred, contempt and ridicule. 

In all actions for defamation malice is an essential element. But 
in such actions the word "malice" is understood as having two 
significations. One its ordinary meaning of ill will against a person, 
and the other its legal signification, which is a wrongful act done 
intentionally without just cause or excuse. These distinctions have 
been denominated malice in fact and malice in law. Malice in fact, 
or actual malice, implies a desire to injure. Malice in law is not 
necessarily inconsistent with an honest purpose, but if false and 
defamatory statements are made concerning another without in- 
sufficient cause or excuse, they are legally malicious, and whenever 
the natural tendency of the publication is to impair the plaintiff's 
reputation and the publication is not privileged, malice is implied 
from the defamatory nature of the publication and its falsity. 

Any untrue written or printed publication, the natural result of 
which is to bring ridicule or contempt upon a person, is libelous, and 
the publication of words of that character is considered the volun- 
tary act of the defendant, and, unless privileged, is presumed by 
law to have proceeded from malicious motives. When, however, 
a publication is privileged, the existence of malice is not presumed, 
and in such cases the burden is on the plaintiff to establish both the 
falsity of the charge and malice in its publication. 

The natural result of the publication of the charge we are con- 
sidering was to bring ridicule, contempt and di.sgrace upon the 
plaintiff, and if untrue, it was plainly libelous, and malice is con- 
clusively presumed from its publication unless we may say as it 
was privileged. 

The plaintiff' was formerly president of the United .States. .At 
the time of the publication he was a candidate for the office of 
president of the I'nited .States, and tlie defcndaiU. b\- his ])lea. 

359 



claimccl that the plaintiff being such candidate, and he, the de- 
fendant, being the publisher of a newspaper, lie was privileged to 
conmient upon the official acts, character and conduct of the plain- 
tiff : that the publication was made in good faith and with an honest 
purpose to enlighten the public upon the character and fitness of 
the plaintiff for the position he sought, and that therefore the 
publication was privileged. 

The publisher of a newspaper may freely discuss the fitness of a 
person for public office : he may lawfully communicate to the public 
any fact within his knowletlge respecting the official acts, character 
or conduct of the candidate and freely express his opinions on and 
his inferences from such facts, so long as he states as facts only 
the truth, and as opinions and inferences therefrom only honest 
belief. To that extent the publisher of a newspaper is within his 
privilege, and any candidate for jnihlio office injured in his repu- 
tation or feeling by reason of the publication of real facts, and of 
the publisher's opinions thereon, and inferences therefrom, honestly 
and in good faith entertained, has no redress. 

lUu Michigan has not yet granted to any one. whether news- 
paper man or not. the privilege of writing or speaking of a candi- 
date for an elective office words which are both defamatory and 
untrue. 

Whatever the law may he in (Uher jurisdictions, with us no one 
is privileged to defame a person because he happens at the time to 
be a candidate for public office. 

When a newspaper attack^^ the character of a candidate for 
public office, the publisher nnist, at his peril, be careful to ascertain 
tiie truth of the facts charged, as in any other case of libel. 

From what has been said it follows that the defendant's liability 
in this action depends solely upon the question whether the charge 
is true or false. 

I'nwilling to rest on the presumption of law that the charge 
was false, and called upon the defendam to prove its truth or 
answer in damages, as was the plaintift""s right, the plaintiff pro- 
ceeded before this Court to show that the charge was false in fact. 
And bv his own. and the testimony of a long list of witnesses of 
high character ami unimpeachable credibility, he has satisfied the 
defendant, the jury also. I fully believe: certainly he has convinced 
the Court, not only that he never was drunk, but that he is now. 
and alwavs has been an exceedingly temperate and abstemious man. 

360 



After hearing the testimony of the plaintiff and his witnesses, 
the defendant, freely, in the presence of the Court, conceded the 
mistake of fact in his pubHcation. In this he has taken a just po- 
sition. 

The Court is satisfied from the testimony of the defendant that 
in pubhshing the statement he was not actuated by actual ill will 
towards the plaintiff, and that he acted in good faith. 

The enjoyment of a private reputation unassailed is as much a 
constitutional right as the possession of life, liberty or property; 
and whenever one's reputation is unlawfully assailed he is entitled 
to recover all the damages which he has actually sustained. 

The law presumes that damages must actually, proximately and 
necessarily result from the publication of defamatory matter when- 
ever the immediate and actual tendency of the defamatory words is 
to impair the plaintiff's reputation. Such was the immediate and 
natural tendency of the publication of the words we are consider- 
ing, conceding that the publication was made in good faith and in 
the absence of actual malice. 

Therefore, accepting as true all which the defendant now 
claims, yet the injury to the reputation and feelings of the plaintiff 
which naturally, proximately and necessarily followed upon the 
false publication would warrant a verdict in the plaintiff's favor in 
a substantial amount, and would sustain a verdict in any sum up to 
the amount claimed in the plaintiff's declaration, which is ten 
thousand dollars. 

But, as the Court is advised by the plaintiff, the object of the 
plaintiff in bringing and prosecuting this action being the vindica- 
tion of his good name and reputation, and not the recovery of a 
money judgment; and he having in open court freely waived his 
right to the assessment of his actual damages, it only remains for 
the Court to direct a verdict in his favor for nominal damages, 
which, under the law of Michigan, is the sum of six cents. 

You are therefore, gentlemen, directed to render a verdict in 
favor of the plaintiff for that amount. 

Mr. Pound: — So that it may appear on the record, I formally 
ask Your Honor to enter an order for the suppression of the de- 
positions not used. 

Court: — The order stands, and there has been an announce- 
ment made of it. 

361 



CERTIFICATE. 

Statk of Michigan, 

T\\ KXTV-FiFTii Jl-i)Rial Circuit, ss. : 

I. George C. Higbee. the undersigned, hereby certify that I am 
the official stenographer of the Twenty-fifth Judicial Circuit of 
Michigan, which Circuit comprises, among other counties, the 
county of ^Marquette. 

That as such officer of said Court, T made the stenographic 
recofd of the trial of the case of Theodore Roosevelt versus George 
A. Xewett, tried in said court upon the twenty-sixth, twenty- 
seventh, twenty-eighth, twenty-nintli and thirty-first days of May, 

I9'3- 

That the foregoing transcript of the testimony and proceedings 

upon said trial is a true, correct and complete copy of the same, 
and of the wdiole thereof. 

George C. Higbee. 



^1 91 % 

362 



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